Results of Global Study on School Choice

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Tyler B., Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Belch

    Belch Rookie

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 12:36 AM

    Let's assume that you are correct. Don't schools in the states receive a large percentage of their funding from local real estate taxes, thus creating financial inequities between districts?

    One could look at that and view "financial inequities" as being a problem for schools to overcome, but you cannot. You see, because those taxes are paid for by the residents, that is taking money away from them in order to help fund the schools, thus removing money that would otherwise remain in the pockets of those residents making them richer.

    You might be correct in saying that poverty causes leaning problems, however because you have a situation where you really can't say whether the chicken or the egg came first (does poverty create learning problems or do learning problems create poverty?), there are far too many variables to say with any degree of certainty whether it is one way or the other.

    I will say that it seems fairly obvious to me that if there are learning problems, then that's going to lead to lower incomes. At least a lot more obvious than saying that learning problems are caused by lower incomes.

    At the end of the day, your idea is that the more you tax residents of lower income neighborhoods to pay for the education of their children, the more educational problems they will have.

    and no, I don't think the earth is flat. I saw a map once, so I know that it is a rectangle.
     
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  2. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 3:53 AM

    Tyler actually thinks taking money from other people and injecting it elsewhere will solve the problem, not realizing (or ignoring because it doesn’t fit his narrative) they already do that in some school districts (like in the entire state of NJ) but it doesn’t actually solve the problem.
     
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  3. Belch

    Belch Rookie

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 5:14 AM

    That sounds like he wants a lowest common denominator situation.

    I can't see any positive outcome from ignoring Pareto distribution.

    Basically, that's a 20/80 distribution of resources, which is found throughout nature, but was originally discovered through a study of wealth distribution, which is what Tyler seems to be arguing against.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
     
  4. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM

    Folks, the money conversation is just not that straightforward if we're approaching it from a research-based, data-based perspective. There are so many mediating variables between money and academic achievement that it's just not possible to say either of the following:

    1) Lack of money invariably leads to lower teacher/school performance and/or student achievement

    2) More money leads to higher performance/achievement.

    What we have to do if we're going to be responsible professionals is to talk about what strategies/structures actually make a difference, then talk about whether money/resources have made those things possible. It's simply not interesting to talk about a school that was hugely funded but has underperformed, without talking about what they did with the money.

    Obviously, a lot of things cost money. Take the development of a Tier II program in an RtI model - we obviously can't just rely of schools restructuring existing supports - we need new, additional supports to fully resource a Tier II program. However, just because a Tier II model is put into place and fully funded does not mean it will be effective. Obviously, there are effective and non-effective strategies.

    We can talk in circles about money, and as long as we keep throwing out anecdotes about how money made a difference or not, or talking about money without talking about what money buys, we're not going to get anywhere.
     
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  5. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 9:49 AM

    There are a variety of incentives that could persuade effective, seasoned teachers to stick around at underperforming schools. These incentives don't necessarily have to be offered to everyone--maybe to only those teachers who consistently post exemplary results. Incentives could be tailored to individual teachers, tapping into each person's currency of choice. For example, additional prep periods or personal days would make me a lot more likely to stay at an underperforming school, and both would reduce my burn-out speed.
     
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  6. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Devotee

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 10:10 AM

    Maybe it could be as simple as to stop labeling high poverty schools as failing. It's really hard to give 100% and face denigration by the media, and even worse, by other educators.
     
  7. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Devotee

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 10:16 AM

    I don't understand why educators think poor kids do not need additional resources. Studies show that the brains of impoverished children show a lack of development and slower functioning. To say these kids just have lazy teachers, and that's why they are underperforming is absurd.

    These kids need additional resources. To deny this is like saying farsighted children should have their neighborhood schools shut down and sent to charter schools instead of just getting them glasses.
     
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  8. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 10:35 AM

    I'm not sure that anyone is arguing against resources. I think what's making people buck back is the idea of more money, like actual dollars, when it seems like money is often spent willy-nilly on stuff that isn't necessarily directly beneficial to students and the school community. Money spent on reading programs, school supplies, hiring more teachers to reduce class sizes...good. Money spent on fancy swivel chairs for the office staff, new paint for the athletic director's office, a Keurig for the principal's office...not good.

    My own district could do with a serious audit, maybe even a forensic audit. I've seen what gets spent on some programs and subscriptions that see usage rates of 1-2%, and it's appalling. I'd much rather see those hundreds of thousands of dollars get spent on paper, library books, safe athletic field turf than on some of the frivolous/unnecessary stuff that it actually gets spent on.
     
  9. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 10:38 AM

    I see your point. Labels do matter when it comes to public perception. At the same time, many of these schools (mine included, at least in the past) are producing failing results. Several years ago I remember that my previous school posted results that were something like 4% of students in grade 10 were proficient in math. Four. Percent. Even taking into consideration the cultural and linguistic bias that can be/is present in those standardized tests, I can't imagine that 4% proficiency is an acceptable result anywhere.
     
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  10. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 10:58 AM

    There’s no question that higher teacher pay would need to come with higher teacher accountability. There is certainly a valid criticism of how teacher accountability is approached in some districts, but the Germans have a good expression which highlights the need for both resources & accountability: “Demand & support.” At least that’s what my German friends have told me!
     
  11. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 11:00 AM

    And we digress. Where are you getting this from the last few pages of comments? Where are people saying that teachers are lazy, and who is advocating for fewer resources?

    It’s a logical fallacy to conclude that a separate argument for improving teacher quality by default means that people don’t believe other resources/strategies aren’t also needed.
     
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  12. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 12:57 PM

    So we should stop labeling schools successful too then.
     
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  13. anon55

    anon55 Comrade

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 6:59 PM

    Also, proper funding for alternative discipline programs. We need plenty of trained counselors ready to help with students with behavior issues if our true goal and mandate is to reduce suspensions and to increase student success. Because right now what we have in many cases is teachers being asked to just put up with worse behavior. They got rid of suspensions but replaced it with nothing in many cases.
     
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  14. anon55

    anon55 Comrade

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 7:01 PM

    I think the involved parents volunteering is the biggest factor you've mentioned which translates to higher achievement.
     
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  15. anon55

    anon55 Comrade

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    Nov 14, 2017 at 7:07 PM

    Why do u think that is?
     
  16. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Nov 15, 2017 at 11:41 AM

    I think this is so very true. Some places I would not stay at no matter how much they pay me. (well I mean, I guess if it were a million dollars or something, maybe, lol) Real change needs to be effected to make schools a good place to work that teachers want to be at, where they feel safe, and their professionalism respected, and that doesn't necessarily mean more money. It could mean a change in administration or administrative policies, school-wide rules, effective behavior intervention for students, and finding the right resources for each student (though to be perfectly frank, these probably do mean more money in the form of paying for special education resources, ISS supervisors, and better administration).

    But I also think incomes/benefits are in a stagnant or downward trend in some places, and that needs to not happen either, if we want to keep seasoned teachers. I don't think we need hefty incentives but we do need sane income growth and medical benefits to match the ever increasing cost of living.
     
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  17. a2z

    a2z Phenom

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    Nov 15, 2017 at 2:00 PM

    But this is happening across almost ever sector, not just teaching. The medical benefit problem is hitting sectors outside of teaching even harder.

    Funny thing is that I am currently watching a district deny a 17,000 pay raise over 3 years because they have to pay 350/year if they want the Cadillac health plan all the while these teachers are being paid well. There are 2 free options available but aren't as good coverage wise all while my friends outside of teaching are paying that much each month for their average health plans. Greedy teachers like these are making teachers all over look bad.
     
  18. ms.irene

    ms.irene Groupie

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    Nov 15, 2017 at 2:10 PM

    We are currently reviewing our demographic and academic data from the past six years as part of our WASC (accreditation) process and some interesting trends stood out to me. We are a Title One school meaning at least a third of our students are considered low-income, but at the same time, our state testing results are 20-30% higher than the county and state average. Starting in 2014, our population started to shift: our white and middle-class populations started to shrink, and our low-income and non-English speaking populations grew. Our homeless student population went from 4 out of 1700 to 34 out of 1650 in two years. At the same time, unsurprisingly, our test scores began to drop, especially for low-income and ELL students. And that is all that changed: our population. Not our funding levels, or our teaching staff quality or their level of dedication. Our schools are judged on our test scores, and the tests essentially test for affluence. Overall, affluent students fare better on the tests, and low-income and ELLs fare worse. I wish we used a better metric than just test outcomes, such as growth over time, or ELL redesignation rates, or even graduation rates, to determine what "success" means for a school.
     
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  19. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Nov 15, 2017 at 2:27 PM

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Nov 16, 2017 at 9:49 AM

    So a quick comment about "We're the same teachers but a different population, so it must not be teacher quality" - There are undoubtedly different skill sets when it comes to working with different populations, from ELL to homeless youth or just kids from impoverished backgrounds. So, the idea that test scores drop when a new demographic increases does not automatically mean that the issue is solely with the demographic. Again, I'm not trying to blame teachers for having caused issues, but with my previous example of heart surgeons, we'd expect heart surgeons to have specialized skills in heart surgery, not just surgery or general medicine. Likewise, working with specific populations can take specialized skills or experience, so you can't just swap out and expect things to stay the same.
     

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