Posting the standard every day

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Ms.Holyoke, Sep 2, 2018.

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  1. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

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    Well, it doesn’t make sense to me, but I’m not the one confusing standards with instructional methods or instructional materials.

    I see parents frequently talk about “Common Core Math” not making any sense, when they are actually talking about the instructional methods. Math is still math. It hasn’t changed. These aren’t, however, people with education degrees, nor are they people who have been a student in recent years.
     
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  2. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    If only the Holyoke knew the Pandora's box this thread would become!!
     
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  3. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    You seem to keep bringing up standards and we are passed that. There seems to be some disconnect here. I was initially conflating Common Core Math and instructional methods aligned to said standards, not the standards themselves.

    You’re right, math is math. BUT, Advanced Math has changed as there are more discoveries made each year. Be that as it may, modern societies have flourished for millennia without the use of these bizarre methods that have come about in relatively recent years. Technology advanced and many discoveries have been made without them and will continue to be without them. Do you think the makers of the atom bomb learned it this way? What about the designers of the space satellites? Do you think they learned it this way? What about engineers who build computer software and bridges? Do you think they learned it this way?

    I have always been good at math and never scored anything less than the 99% percentile in math and I *never* learned it this way. People have learned math since it’s inception without these peculiar and frankly bizarre methods, so there was no need to adopt them. Only in America is basic arithmetic and Algebra 2 seen as advanced.
     
  4. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Come on, @futuremathsprof ...one of the books you referenced is simply a bunch of brief daily warm-ups. You had to have known that wasn't the child's textbook. Smh.
     
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  5. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Well, when the children say their teachers don’t use any other books for math and that is the only book I have at my disposal, what am I supposed to think? A textbook, to me, is the book primarily used for instruction in a course. That workbook was the primary book utilized. Hence, my conclusion.
     
  6. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    I remember you saying in another thread how important you think technology is for teaching. People learned without technology for millennia too.

    Is your argument that we should just be teaching the same way they did way back in the day?
     
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  7. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    If I tutor, I tend to ask an adult or the teacher, not necessarily trust 100% of my knowledge from the 10 year old (+/- whatever number of years).

    And do you have proof, outside of your biased eyes (not meant negatively, but rather objectively), that performance in math has waned over the decades?
     
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  8. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    You are partially correct concerning your first point. I basically said technology is important as an instructional aid because students’ lives are dependent on it and because of its wide use of applications.

    Ima Teacher said that math hasn’t changed and so I agreed and said there is no need to fix was isn’t broken. Societies the world over have done just fine without the methods I disdain. There is a reason for that and that is that the old methods work. Do you think employers use my methods or the instructional methods from these wacky texts?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  9. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    Here's a great article that seems to well-address both sides of this discussion.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/magazine/why-do-americans-stink-at-math.html

    It's a long, long read, and I'm still just 3/4 into it, but ran upon this:

    "Left to their own devices, teachers are once again trying to incorporate new ideas into old scripts, often botching them in the process. One especially nonsensical result stems from the Common Core’s suggestion that students not just find answers but also “illustrate and explain the calculation by using equations, rectangular arrays, and/or area models.” The idea of utilizing arrays of dots makes sense in the hands of a skilled teacher, who can use them to help a student understand how multiplication actually works. For example, a teacher trying to explain multiplication might ask a student to first draw three rows of dots with two dots in each row and then imagine what the picture would look like with three or four or five dots in each row. Guiding the student through the exercise, the teacher could help her see that each march up the times table (3x2, 3x3, 3x4) just means adding another dot per row. But if a teacher doesn’t use the dots to illustrate bigger ideas, they become just another meaningless exercise. Instead of memorizing familiar steps, students now practice even stranger rituals, like drawing dots only to count them or breaking simple addition problems into complicated forms (62+26, for example, must become 60+2+20+6) without understanding why. This can make for even poorer math students. “In the hands of unprepared teachers,” Lampert says, “alternative algorithms are worse than just teaching them standard algorithms.”"
     
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  10. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Yes, student test scores now compared with those in the past. If you look back to the 20th century, students performed much higher in math. And do you really have to ask when like 20% of students or lower in numerous states pass math on state tests? Or you can look at the fact that community colleges are doing away with the Intermediate Algebra 2 requirement because it was “so difficult” for students to pass.
     
  11. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    I think they use computers to do all of the basic computations we are discussing.
     
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  12. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    Employers don’t use math methods. They just expect their employees to be able to reason and problem solve. I’ve never heard of an employer requiring a specific mathematical strategy from an employee.

    Aside from that, today’s students will be tomorrow’s employers. They’ll use what they know works for them. The whole point of the new methods are to emphasize that a variety of strategies and creative ways of thinking can all lead to the same mathematically correct answer. No longer do people have to blindly follow procedural rules without an understanding of why they work.
     
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  13. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Yes, but they still have to do computations for blueprints and when taking measurements and mapping out schedules time wise or checking their finance calculations and a plethora of other ways. Excel sheets can do the math but you still have to know the algebra to input the formula correctly. There is still mathematical logic involved.
     
  14. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    There are other variables to consider besides the instructional methods. Surely you knew that.
     
  15. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    You don’t think CEOs and Board Members perform statistics analysis and/or run computer diagnostics and such. They look at complex data all the time. They actually do a ton of math in a variety of different forms.
     
  16. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    Could we "pause" and all read the article? Honestly, I think it captures what many of us are thinking and does a better job than any one of us can in helping us see the interconnectedness of what we're all seeing from our various perspectives and why we're seeing it.
     
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  17. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    Sure, but they’re likely using computers for that. They aren’t going to require that their employee use the standard algorithm over partial products to multiply.
     
  18. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Instructional methods used play a large part in whether students understand the math or they don’t. Surely you knew that.
     
  19. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    I did. But I also know that he demographics have largely changed in the past 20 years, as have the tests. Those changes should be factored in as much as changing instructional methods.
     
  20. Aces

    Aces Cohort

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    More over, I kinda think everyone should just take a step back and realize that the horse has been beat into the ground and it is now a bloody pulp of what used to be...
     
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