PBIS

Discussion in 'General Education' started by YoungTeacherGuy, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. MetalTeacher

    MetalTeacher Companion

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    Aug 30, 2017

    I think so much of the backlash against PBIS either involves not understanding what it is, or having seen it implemented poorly in a very small sample size. At its core, it's having a system of school-wide behavior plans, procedures, and consequences that provide clear and consistent expectations for students, and having a tiered set of supports in place to deal with frequent problems, as well as taking data when problems occur to determine where and when these problems tend to occur. I have a hard time understanding how "consistent rules and consequences and knowledge of the conditions under which problems occur" could be construed as a bad thing, and there's certainly no lowering of standards or showering students with rewards for meeting basic expectations in the core requirements of PBIS. I'm not even sure how those became associated with it in the first place, because they're not part of it.
     
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  2. a2z

    a2z Phenom

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    Aug 30, 2017

    Poor understanding and poor implementation of the system. Also, people who don't want to change from their current methods of dealing with student behavior need an excuse, oh, I mean reason, to justify not changing what they do.

    I equate some of the problems with educators not being educated. Just as many don't understand special education law and just parrot what they hear from others, so to do they parrot what they hear about PBIS. These preconceived or false notions are then the basis for their perception, and they look for things to support their belief.
     
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  3. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    Aug 30, 2017

    Sadly, those awards have been associated with it.

    I am actually enjoying this thread and seeing a better understanding of what it's supposed to because hretofore I have had a terrible impression of PBIS--all based on horror stories I've been told of reward-based instruction and difficulties make the awards consistent and fair.

    Please be patient yet firm with me as I go through a paradigm shift here.
     
  4. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    So a s a general theoretical question...

    Would you encourage those teacher in schools of poor PBIS implementation to speak up?
     
  5. Teacherhere

    Teacherhere Companion

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    I'll take the bait. So in this extremely clear PBIS plan, what is the consequence for the child who calls their teacher the B word? Is there a real consequence? Or do we just move them to tier 2 and write up a bunch of jargon on a form? Or do we sit the child down in a big circle jerk discussion and hear about the child's feelings?
     
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  6. Bunnie

    Bunnie Devotee

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    PBIS is meant to focus on your tier 1 students. PBIS programs do not work on or really impact tier 2/3 students. That's a whole other separate thing you have to work on with those students. You're trying to get 80% buy in essentially. But it has to be properly implemented and rewards given in an acceptable time frame for it to work as well as teaching whatever core values your school wants to go by and live in believing in those values.

    Many schools do not implement PBIS the right way to make it effective as a whole and that's what many teachers see and associate with the program. It's really not that terrible if your whole school and staff buy into and support the ideas because then it trickles down to the students buying in.
     
  7. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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    Aug 30, 2017

    I've never heard of PBIS being used in a Canadian school so really all I know about PBIS is what I've read on this site. My primary concern/question is the extrinsic rewards. I have read too much research highlighting the long term, negative impacts of external rewards to be comfortable with a system that, at its core, requires external rewards. So if PBIS is what MetalTeacher said, "It's having a system of school-wide behavior plans, procedures, and consequences that provide clear and consistent expectations for students, and having a tiered set of supports in place to deal with frequent problems, as well as taking data when problems occur to determine where and when these problems tend to occur." I would be all for it. That sounds like what we do in my school. If it requires external rewards, I can't see how it could be better for kids that a system that does what MetalTeacher refers to without the external rewards.
     
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  8. Teacherhere

    Teacherhere Companion

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    I am just trying to get a simple answer. In PBIS, what happens when a tier 1, tier 2, tier 3 student call a teacher the B word? What is the consequence? If the PBIS is so clear, then what is the consequence?

    It seems to me people are saying the distaste for PBIS comes from improper implementation. It sounds a lot like these idiots who praise marxism and say that socialism/communism didn't work because they were implemented incorrectly. However, it would somehow be a good idea to try it here in America regardless of the fact that marxism has led to more death than any war or system of government in the history of the world. That is the argument I am feeling with PBIS. It is such a wonderful system, yet cannot be explained to people with doctorate degrees to implement correctly.
     
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  9. MetalTeacher

    MetalTeacher Companion

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    It's up to the individual school to set the consequence, as long as the consequence is made clear to everyone and is consistent across the school. It doesn't come with a pre-determined set of rules or consequences.
     
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  10. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Fanatic

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    Aug 31, 2017

    Our school does PBIS, but much differently than other schools, it seems. We definitely still have strict discipline! A few years ago, teachers determined what is a major referral and what is minor. Major means the student automatically goes to the discipline office, and possible results could be detention or suspension. Other infractions are handled in the classroom. The teacher can give warnings, call home, time out room, or give detention. We are encouraged to reward students with different prizes the school gives us to hand out. Also, at the end of the year, students with no suspensions for the year are invited to a carnival the last hour of school. I think we have the best of both worlds.
     
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  11. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Been following this thread for a while but now finding some time to respond.

    First, I support the comments about proper implementation - teacherhere (and others challenging PBIS), your task is simple - come up with challenges to PBIS that aren't due to implementation error. Most of what you've mentioned so far has been due to implementation error, not theory.

    Marxism? Problem with theory. PBIS? Hmmm...

    That being said, any good conversation needs people to acknowledge the validity on either side of the argument. One problem with our country now is that we are having falsely polarized conversations in which one is expected to take a side, then spend the entirety of one's time and attention vigorously defending that position against any possible argument from the other side. Sorry, that just doesn't work - few things in the world are so perfect (or perfectly wrong) that it's a 100% slam dunk on either side.

    So...to teacherhere's point, PBIS will certainly struggle with fixing the root causes of social/emotional learning & behavior in schools. PBIS can help teach and reinforce social skills, but the culture, values, & other social contexts in which kids grow up and learn how to interact with each other is often more deeply rooted in a child's value system, belief structure, social goal structure, etc. We often talk about "street culture" being at odds with healthy school climate/culture, for example - PBIS can teach kids how to seek win-win solutions, and create a school context in which win-win solutions are valued/prized over alternatives. Still, the cultural/social contexts surrounding the desirability of "win-win solutions" may be directly at odds with school culture/values, and hard to change.

    Even if a school is successful at changing daily behavior related to prosocial skills, I wonder how many of those students have firmly, deeply, and longitudinally adopted those social values. Teachers in highly successful PBIS schools - ask yourselves if you think that your difficult students who are performing well in your classroom are likely to do so in 10 years, because of your classroom. Don't get me wrong - as an educator, I sure hope that I'm making a difference, and I do believe that I am. However, the idea that PBIS is fundamentally reorganizing a child's cultural & social contexts related to behavior and life decisions may not be 100% accurate.

    So, maybe the reality is that we're just talking about different things. Teacherhere, a fundamental goal of behavior support in schools is simply to render behavior irrelevant so that teachers can teach. Does it really need to be "real" as you demand? Isn't it okay that it's fake, temporary, not deep? We just need to teach the curriculum.

    On the other hand, it sounds like you're arguing for a much deeper and fundamental role of schools in restructuring our social & cultural contexts. It sounds like you're challenging schoolwide behavioral systems to be deeply meaningful, authentic, & life-changing. I'm down for that challenge, and I'm with you - in my own "practice," I too have become dissatisfied with just using PBIS-related strategies, because I do see them as a bit shallow, short-term, & artificial. I strong believe in PBIS as a good start for a schoolwide behavioral system, but by no means do I think we should stop there.

    So.....to sum up a long post. PBIS works. Sorry, the data don't support you if you say otherwise. 40 years of research. If you want to challenge, come up with reasons other than implementation errors - we'll hear you, but if you just come up with "PBIS problems" that aren't actually related to proper PBIS, you don't sound very educated on the matter. However, just because PBIS may be a good and effective thing for what it does surely doesn't mean it will solve all problems, even the ones it helps ameliorate. Have you ever taken ibuprofen? Do you really think ibuprofen is fixing the underlying problem, or just giving you temporary relief. A strategy does not need to be ALL things to ALL people for it to work. But challenging educators to go deeper and more authentic? I'll go with you there.
     
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  12. EdEd

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    Oh, and I'll answer this too. In a well-implemented PBIS system, verbal aggression against a teacher along with (likely) insubordination would involve a rapid escalation in a stepwise timeout program that would involve scaled loss of privilege (punishment), parent involvement, and whatever other consequences were part of the plan. If not an isolated incident (which PBIS data could help identify), it would also likely trigger a functional behavioral analysis or other, more intensive, behavioral intervention plan to identify the cause of the problem. Is the student getting frustrated because of work difficulty and losing control? Is the student trying to get attention? Is the student used to hostile interaction at home and simply carrying over interactional patterns to the classroom?

    PBIS would be explicitly clear - so much more vastly clear than consequences in any school I've worked in that does not use PBIS (or a similar model), in which typically the administrator simply "throws the book" at the student (e.g., OSS, parent conference, loss of participation in extra-curricular, etc.). And sure, all of that may sound great - "We're really holding that student accountable, aren't we!" (Hard-line teacher pats himself on the back and feels like he's restoring law and order to the world). But, guess what the student does next week? The same thing. And the week after? The same thing.

    I can't tell you the number of times I've worked with classroom teachers (my background is school psychology) who are immensely strict, and immensely failing with classroom management. The problem is that the problem isn't a lack of discipline, at least with many kids. It's just simply not true that kids exhibit all the behaviors they do because teachers don't give them enough consequence. If it were, I can hand you a long list of teachers that theoretically should have been a lot more successful than you'd have predicted.
     
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  13. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    It can address Tier II/III, depending on how everything is defined. A good schoolwide program will use data to identify problems that aren't being addressed with the basic prevention/general education strategies related to behavior, then deliver more targeted strategies. I've certainly seen PBIS include this, although sometimes its labeled MTSS/PBIS.
     
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  14. Geologygirl

    Geologygirl Comrade

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    Sep 4, 2017

    We spent a week teaching it to kids this year then nothing.no schoolwide rewards for following the rules. The kids are actully acting up even more than in past years. Iv started giving extracredit to kids on task, but I am not sure how it is suppose to support less detentions and suspensions as a whole.
     
  15. Teacherhere

    Teacherhere Companion

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    PBIS is not meant for the teachers to see any improvement or be better off. Teachers just need to shut their mouths and deal with it. PBIS is meant to make the community, higher ups in district, and state politicians to feel all warm and fuzzy inside because these disciplinary actions are down.

    You can either be the teacher who questions these illogical approaches or you can put your blinders on and stand on the sidelines being a PBIS cheerleader just like any other nonsense that is shoved down your throat by the district.
     
  16. otterpop

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    I'm not sure what you mean... did your school back out of offering rewards after you told kids what the system would be?
     
  17. Geologygirl

    Geologygirl Comrade

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    They got entered into a contest if they showed up for class ontime and completed the pbis activites after the first week but nothing since....There do not seem to realy be any rewards in place for continuing to follow the rules or act responsibly. I guess I assumed there would be some kind of reward for following the expectations, otherwise I guess I am just confused on how this is different than following school rules and how it will cut down suspension rates.
     
  18. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Aficionado

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    It's a huge waste of time in my school. It's not a regular school to begin with so it's even more difficult to bring about change. I already give rewards in my classroom so that part I agree with but the school is giving the teachers extra work because of this. I think the kids should start with it in their first year of school and not have it thrown at them willynilly when they're already teenagers.
     
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  19. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Apparently you're not going to respond to actual comments about what you're saying?
     
  20. Teacherhere

    Teacherhere Companion

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    No need for debate Ed. Public education is about corrupt as corruption gets. I do the best job I can with my class but i will not have my intelligence insulted by the bureaucratic BS.
     
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