PBIS

Discussion in 'General Education' started by YoungTeacherGuy, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    Aug 30, 2017

    So a s a general theoretical question...

    Would you encourage those teacher in schools of poor PBIS implementation to speak up?
     
  2. Bunnie

    Bunnie Devotee

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    PBIS is meant to focus on your tier 1 students. PBIS programs do not work on or really impact tier 2/3 students. That's a whole other separate thing you have to work on with those students. You're trying to get 80% buy in essentially. But it has to be properly implemented and rewards given in an acceptable time frame for it to work as well as teaching whatever core values your school wants to go by and live in believing in those values.

    Many schools do not implement PBIS the right way to make it effective as a whole and that's what many teachers see and associate with the program. It's really not that terrible if your whole school and staff buy into and support the ideas because then it trickles down to the students buying in.
     
  3. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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    I've never heard of PBIS being used in a Canadian school so really all I know about PBIS is what I've read on this site. My primary concern/question is the extrinsic rewards. I have read too much research highlighting the long term, negative impacts of external rewards to be comfortable with a system that, at its core, requires external rewards. So if PBIS is what MetalTeacher said, "It's having a system of school-wide behavior plans, procedures, and consequences that provide clear and consistent expectations for students, and having a tiered set of supports in place to deal with frequent problems, as well as taking data when problems occur to determine where and when these problems tend to occur." I would be all for it. That sounds like what we do in my school. If it requires external rewards, I can't see how it could be better for kids that a system that does what MetalTeacher refers to without the external rewards.
     
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  4. MetalTeacher

    MetalTeacher Companion

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    It's up to the individual school to set the consequence, as long as the consequence is made clear to everyone and is consistent across the school. It doesn't come with a pre-determined set of rules or consequences.
     
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  5. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Our school does PBIS, but much differently than other schools, it seems. We definitely still have strict discipline! A few years ago, teachers determined what is a major referral and what is minor. Major means the student automatically goes to the discipline office, and possible results could be detention or suspension. Other infractions are handled in the classroom. The teacher can give warnings, call home, time out room, or give detention. We are encouraged to reward students with different prizes the school gives us to hand out. Also, at the end of the year, students with no suspensions for the year are invited to a carnival the last hour of school. I think we have the best of both worlds.
     
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  6. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Been following this thread for a while but now finding some time to respond.

    First, I support the comments about proper implementation - teacherhere (and others challenging PBIS), your task is simple - come up with challenges to PBIS that aren't due to implementation error. Most of what you've mentioned so far has been due to implementation error, not theory.

    Marxism? Problem with theory. PBIS? Hmmm...

    That being said, any good conversation needs people to acknowledge the validity on either side of the argument. One problem with our country now is that we are having falsely polarized conversations in which one is expected to take a side, then spend the entirety of one's time and attention vigorously defending that position against any possible argument from the other side. Sorry, that just doesn't work - few things in the world are so perfect (or perfectly wrong) that it's a 100% slam dunk on either side.

    So...to teacherhere's point, PBIS will certainly struggle with fixing the root causes of social/emotional learning & behavior in schools. PBIS can help teach and reinforce social skills, but the culture, values, & other social contexts in which kids grow up and learn how to interact with each other is often more deeply rooted in a child's value system, belief structure, social goal structure, etc. We often talk about "street culture" being at odds with healthy school climate/culture, for example - PBIS can teach kids how to seek win-win solutions, and create a school context in which win-win solutions are valued/prized over alternatives. Still, the cultural/social contexts surrounding the desirability of "win-win solutions" may be directly at odds with school culture/values, and hard to change.

    Even if a school is successful at changing daily behavior related to prosocial skills, I wonder how many of those students have firmly, deeply, and longitudinally adopted those social values. Teachers in highly successful PBIS schools - ask yourselves if you think that your difficult students who are performing well in your classroom are likely to do so in 10 years, because of your classroom. Don't get me wrong - as an educator, I sure hope that I'm making a difference, and I do believe that I am. However, the idea that PBIS is fundamentally reorganizing a child's cultural & social contexts related to behavior and life decisions may not be 100% accurate.

    So, maybe the reality is that we're just talking about different things. Teacherhere, a fundamental goal of behavior support in schools is simply to render behavior irrelevant so that teachers can teach. Does it really need to be "real" as you demand? Isn't it okay that it's fake, temporary, not deep? We just need to teach the curriculum.

    On the other hand, it sounds like you're arguing for a much deeper and fundamental role of schools in restructuring our social & cultural contexts. It sounds like you're challenging schoolwide behavioral systems to be deeply meaningful, authentic, & life-changing. I'm down for that challenge, and I'm with you - in my own "practice," I too have become dissatisfied with just using PBIS-related strategies, because I do see them as a bit shallow, short-term, & artificial. I strong believe in PBIS as a good start for a schoolwide behavioral system, but by no means do I think we should stop there.

    So.....to sum up a long post. PBIS works. Sorry, the data don't support you if you say otherwise. 40 years of research. If you want to challenge, come up with reasons other than implementation errors - we'll hear you, but if you just come up with "PBIS problems" that aren't actually related to proper PBIS, you don't sound very educated on the matter. However, just because PBIS may be a good and effective thing for what it does surely doesn't mean it will solve all problems, even the ones it helps ameliorate. Have you ever taken ibuprofen? Do you really think ibuprofen is fixing the underlying problem, or just giving you temporary relief. A strategy does not need to be ALL things to ALL people for it to work. But challenging educators to go deeper and more authentic? I'll go with you there.
     
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  7. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Oh, and I'll answer this too. In a well-implemented PBIS system, verbal aggression against a teacher along with (likely) insubordination would involve a rapid escalation in a stepwise timeout program that would involve scaled loss of privilege (punishment), parent involvement, and whatever other consequences were part of the plan. If not an isolated incident (which PBIS data could help identify), it would also likely trigger a functional behavioral analysis or other, more intensive, behavioral intervention plan to identify the cause of the problem. Is the student getting frustrated because of work difficulty and losing control? Is the student trying to get attention? Is the student used to hostile interaction at home and simply carrying over interactional patterns to the classroom?

    PBIS would be explicitly clear - so much more vastly clear than consequences in any school I've worked in that does not use PBIS (or a similar model), in which typically the administrator simply "throws the book" at the student (e.g., OSS, parent conference, loss of participation in extra-curricular, etc.). And sure, all of that may sound great - "We're really holding that student accountable, aren't we!" (Hard-line teacher pats himself on the back and feels like he's restoring law and order to the world). But, guess what the student does next week? The same thing. And the week after? The same thing.

    I can't tell you the number of times I've worked with classroom teachers (my background is school psychology) who are immensely strict, and immensely failing with classroom management. The problem is that the problem isn't a lack of discipline, at least with many kids. It's just simply not true that kids exhibit all the behaviors they do because teachers don't give them enough consequence. If it were, I can hand you a long list of teachers that theoretically should have been a lot more successful than you'd have predicted.
     
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  8. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    It can address Tier II/III, depending on how everything is defined. A good schoolwide program will use data to identify problems that aren't being addressed with the basic prevention/general education strategies related to behavior, then deliver more targeted strategies. I've certainly seen PBIS include this, although sometimes its labeled MTSS/PBIS.
     
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  9. Geologygirl

    Geologygirl Comrade

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    Sep 4, 2017

    We spent a week teaching it to kids this year then nothing.no schoolwide rewards for following the rules. The kids are actully acting up even more than in past years. Iv started giving extracredit to kids on task, but I am not sure how it is suppose to support less detentions and suspensions as a whole.
     
  10. otterpop

    otterpop Aficionado

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    I'm not sure what you mean... did your school back out of offering rewards after you told kids what the system would be?
     
  11. Geologygirl

    Geologygirl Comrade

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    They got entered into a contest if they showed up for class ontime and completed the pbis activites after the first week but nothing since....There do not seem to realy be any rewards in place for continuing to follow the rules or act responsibly. I guess I assumed there would be some kind of reward for following the expectations, otherwise I guess I am just confused on how this is different than following school rules and how it will cut down suspension rates.
     
  12. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Aficionado

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    It's a huge waste of time in my school. It's not a regular school to begin with so it's even more difficult to bring about change. I already give rewards in my classroom so that part I agree with but the school is giving the teachers extra work because of this. I think the kids should start with it in their first year of school and not have it thrown at them willynilly when they're already teenagers.
     
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  13. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Apparently you're not going to respond to actual comments about what you're saying?
     
  14. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    That's pretty dismissive. I agree with you that there is too much corruption and bureaucracy in public education - so much so that I work in the nonprofit sector now. But, we're not talking about that - we're talking about educational strategy, PBIS in particular. You can't simply enter a conversation and use "corruption" and "bureaucracy" as catch all arguments to avoid actual discussion of the topic at hand. Not if you want to be taken seriously and professionally.

    To be blunt, if you want respect, elevate the conversation. If you want your intelligence to be respected, put it on display. Be a thought leader in your school, and on this forum. There is plenty of room to disagree with status quo and challenge the establishment. I do it daily. But you've got to do it in a way that uses reason, research, and respect.

    To return to PBIS, I think you've got some valid points that are often overlooked by school leaders because your ideas aren't politically correct or du jour. Would be interested to continue the conversation if you so choose.
     
  15. WarriorPrncss

    WarriorPrncss Companion

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    Sep 9, 2017

    My last school did it... I'm not sure how it's supposed to be done, but we handed out tickets when students did something safe, respectful, or responsible. Half the ticket went into a class jar that earned the class a popcorn party when it filled up and the other half they could use to buy things each Friday at the PBIS store. In addition to that, there'd be a monthly PBIS school-wide activity for those students with no writeups... some things were simple, like extra 15 minutes of recess at the end of the day, other things were bigger like being allowed to go to the BMX bike demo or the Raptor show that they brought on campus...
     
  16. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    So I keep hearing two different things about giving out the rewards.

    Half the people keep speaking about consistency: rewarding watching the students like a hawk and making a goal to reward EVERY TIME they did X or Y or Z. Detractors say this is humanly impossible and quickly loses efficacy anyway.

    The other half say pick random and occasional times to look for those behaviors and reward them. Detractors say this confuses kids and does not provide the aforementioned consistency to develop the behavior.

    Which is it?
     
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  17. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    ...and this is why I prefer the natural consequence/celebration!
     
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  18. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    I'll go with do both.
     
  19. otterpop

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    I don't know about the real PBIS way, but I think the second method is more beneficial.
     
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  20. anon55

    anon55 Comrade

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    I really don't know what bashing left wing politics has to do with PBIS? People on the political left and right find themselves on both sides of this school discipline debate.

    There are good alternative discipline policies which keep behavior under control and also reduce suspensions; keeping vulnerable students with trauma in the classroom learning instead of coming back from suspensions worse than before. Maybe you can do some research on alternatives to the failed zero tolerance model
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
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  21. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Random and occasional, but more frequent when introducing a new skill. Yes, rewarding all occasions of behavior would be impossible, or at the very least exhausting.

    This taps into "schedules of reinforcement" - theoretically, when teaching a new skill rewarding every time a behavior is exhibited is generally best, then "fading" into an "intermittent schedule of reinforcement" which actually produces more sustainable results.
     
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  22. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Aficionado

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    We will be rewarding students up to 2X per period. There's no way we could do it every time a behavior was observed. We'd need an extra TA just to do that!
     
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