Not giving zeroes

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Ms.Holyoke, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    :yeahthat:
     
  2. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Devotee

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    The difference EXCLUSIVELY is that you can say....you don't do your homework, that's a zero!!!!!

    Listen I give 0s so it was a hypothetical different way to package it. I'm not married to because I don't use it so we don't have to get our panties in a bunch over the wrapping paper.
     
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  3. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    Well, first, I don't wear that kind of underwear being a guy ;) , and don't worry, I'm not!

    I was simply curious if there was something I was missing. That's what I was wondering about: if your idea behind it was solely around the shock value of the zero, vs. there being an actual mathematical difference. Thank you for clarifying that!
     
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  4. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    I LIKE the shock value of a zero. Kids in high school NEED to know that they get nothing if they give nothing.
    I don't have any problem with giving second chances. Allowing a child another day to submit work. But giving grades for work not done isn't my style.
     
  5. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    This. Exactly this!
     
  6. vickilyn

    vickilyn Virtuoso

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    I think that having this discussion about fifth graders is a little different than having the same discussion about high school students. Just a personal opinion.
     
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  7. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Why is it that special considerations need to constantly be made for elementary students all of a sudden? Students did just fine with traditional grading and grade weights in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s. How are they going to cope when they get to middle school and high school?
     
  8. MathGuy31

    MathGuy31 Rookie

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    I believe that zero's should be given under the right circumstances . As well as other disciplinary actions that correlate with the school. Staying in at recess, detention, and other things. But yes, zero's should be given if the student is just plainly not doing work for no logical reason. Parents/counselors should be intervened as well if this is a regular occurrence.
     
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  9. vickilyn

    vickilyn Virtuoso

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    Primarily I was concerned by the amount of weight that classwork is given in OP's 5th grade class - 55%. I teach HS, and classwork typically counts for no more that 20%, sometimes even 15%. Tests, quizzes, and projects make up the bulk of the grade - 80%-85%. Personally, I would find a better way to make some of that classwork grade a true assessment grade, which would allow her to restructure her percentages to something more like HS, but if she maintains that classwork will be the majority of the grade I would hesitate to give a zero for work done incorrectly. They can fail to get the assignment correct, earning an F, which is still a 65, not a zero, but a zero should be reserved for someone who sat through the entire period without even trying to do the work. If the kid who does nothing gets the same zero as the kid who tried, but didn't master the assignment (did it incorrectly), how long do you think it will take for the kid who used to try to just do nothing, too? All of this is just my opinion, of course, but I see a major difference between wrong answers with work versus absolutely no attempt to do the work.
     
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  10. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Devotee

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    I teach 6th grade but I agree that 6th grade is very different from high school.

    For classwork, I will be grading some of it on mastery depending on the assignments. Kids will get some completion grades, but will also get grades for exit tickets and other classwork assignments based on mastery.
     
  11. vickilyn

    vickilyn Virtuoso

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    Sorry about that! My point was simply that HS grades are more likely to be 80/15/5 tests and quizzes/classwork/projects, a lower functioning class may be 70/20/10, tests and quizzes/classwork/projects, to even 85/10/5 in Honor's, tests and quizzes/classwork/projects. Admittedly I teach science, but I am math savvy enough to know that a zero with the HS division of how grades are calculated is not the same as 55% classwork that the 6th grade is using.

    I might suggest a modification to how you calculate your grades, however. Instead of letting classwork be that whopping 55%, how about breaking it down into something like 20/20/15, classwork/exit tickets/mastery? Or even putting exit tickets with tests and quizzes, so that you end up with 65% of the grade is based on mastery via testing. Do the classwork, and most likely that grade will go up for mastery will go up, but you wouldn't sink your grade totally for occasionally being off task.

    Before I get hammered for that statement, I just want to recognize that everyone carries what is going on in their life into the work place on occasion. This includes teachers and students. The teachers may realize what is happening and be able to change things in their lives to rectify the situation - very few sixth graders have the same insight or means to do the same.

    I know that you asked about giving zeroes, but maybe the grade layout is the issue, not the occasional zero. With the grades driven by test and assessment scores, the grade will be evaluated by mastery, which should be the goal.
     
  12. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Devotee

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    ^
    I already got my grade breakdown approved and can't change it. However, classwork is 40%, assessments are 45%, and homework is 5%.
     
  13. vickilyn

    vickilyn Virtuoso

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    Just curious - do the exit tickets count as assessments or classwork?
     
  14. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Devotee

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    Classwork
     
  15. Teacher234

    Teacher234 Comrade

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    While I do see what you are saying, personally, grading based on effort is a lot better because grading homework for accuracy is simply not necessary. Grading homework for accuracy occasionally is acceptable, but not for every homework assignment. If a child puts in the effort, they should receive a 100% or a 95% (if a lot of the assignment is incorrect).
    I do, however, check over my student's homework very closely. I will put in a completion grade or no grade at all. A student who put forth effort on a homework assignment (unless it is specifically an at-home quick check) will NEVER receive below a 90%.
     
  16. rpan

    rpan Cohort

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    Could you explain your reasoning as to why you think grading for accuracy isn’t as important as grading for effort? Would you be comfortable giving a student who tries very very hard a high overall grade, even if they haven’t shown a high level of mastery?
     
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  17. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    You can't really ever grade for effort when you don't see the students working. Even then, putting something on paper isn't necessarily effort for the person who understands the material very well. It is more a function of compliance.

    There are students who put little to no effort into assignments and get everything right because it is too far below where they are and kids who struggle, even in their heads thinking about what to do, who are actually working harder. The product doesn't show the effort put in.
     
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  18. Lisabobisa

    Lisabobisa Companion

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    The problem with a zero is how far below a passing grade it puts a student.
    F = 0-59% - 60 percentage points to move to a D
    D = 60-69% - 10 percentage points to move to a C
    C = 70-79% - 10 percentage points to move to a B
    B = 80-89% - 10 percentage points to move to an A
    A = 90-100%

    I get the shock value of a 0, but it makes such a drastic difference on a student's overall grade that some may just give up. I worked with students in an emotional support high school classroom. I had a student with a 15% average and very little motivation to bring that up because "what's the point if I'm going to fail anyway". If they had a 55% average it wouldn't have seemed like such a lofty goal.
     
  19. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    I think that helping students not give up can fall in a different category, i.e. working with them to provide opportunities to make up work down the line...otherwise you're essentially valuing a student's work that completed half of something about the same as a student's, well, lack of any work.
     
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  20. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Can't the same be said for any student who isn't learning? They give up because they see no purpose in trying to master something they aren't understanding? Aside from telling everyone they are doing fine, you will never get rid of this problem completely. Standards based grading goes a way to eliminate some of this because a student can be successful with some standards and unsuccessful with others rather than having 1 grade trying to represent 10 different standards.

    At least with a zero for no completed work you can point to a very specific reason why the grade is so low. The work was not done. If this is part of homework and an exception not a rule, it won't tank a student's overall grade. If it is habitual or for work that constitutes a large percentage of their overall grade for things such as tests, quizzes, and projects, I can see it tanking a grade.

    I guess the question is, if the students is taking tests, quizzes, and doing projects all at high levels and successfully, doesn't that indicate they are mastering the material? Should homework and even some classwork, if it is not part of a major project, matter if those things are being done to help students learn the material?
     
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