Janus case

Discussion in 'General Education' started by czacza, Feb 25, 2018.

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  1. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Mar 6, 2018

    It’s not a motherhood penalty. How can you be expected to be paid the same during the period that you are not working and not earning a company money?

    To answer your second question, which has an certain element of truth in specific instances:

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.chic...-bias-hiring-0504-biz-20160503-story,amp.html

    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2014/11/04/hiring-racial-bias

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.na...y-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice/amp/

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...name-resume-50-percent-less-likely-get-respo/

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160426162606.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  2. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Read the articles that I posted and watch the videos. All is explained there.
     
  3. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    Mar 6, 2018

    Thanks for doing the research and trying to pick good sources. It's so intimidating to think about reading all those and watching videos, I don't think I'm up to the task this week. I think everyone on this board would advocate equal pay for equal work.

    The Janus case is about weakening or dissolving union protections for teachers and other public employees. I'm concerned that the far right SCOUS will rule against teachers.
     
  4. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    No problem.

    I actually think they will rule in favor of teacher unions because Gorsuch likes to read and interpret laws and statutes as they are written and relies on established precedence to make rulings. Plus, the Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of unions before in cases involving fair pay and the beneficiaries of collective bargaining, so it probably will stay for those reasons.
     
  5. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    Mar 6, 2018

    I would really encourage people to read Lean In. The author does a much better job than I can of explaining all the ways women are discriminated against in the work place. I do think unions help level the playing field. In Ontario, they actually really work to create equity in really concrete ways for women, minorities, the LGBTQ2S community, etc.

    One example of how I still see this inequity in the work place is that women make up far more than 1/2 the teachers in Ontario. They make up far more than 1/2 of the teachers with their Principal's qualification and far more than 1/2 of the teachers with their Supervisory Officer Qualifications and yet, we still see less women in administration (which is not unionized). Until OCT released the stats I always thought maybe there were less women interested in leadership but that's just flat out not the reality. The reality is women want the positions and they just don't get them.
     
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  6. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Show me evidence for this. Did you poll these women or did someone ask them if they wanted to be principals or supervisors?

    gender imbalance in a profession =/= hiring inequity

    In the US, there are more female pharmacists than there are male pharmacists and there are more female judges than there are male judges. Also, women dominate the fields of elementary education, nursing, and modeling. Concerning the latter, female models make like seven times what male models make, on average. Does that mean that their male counterparts are being discriminated against because there are more females in those fields or they make more money?

    Let’s not use non-sequiturs to form our arguments.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  7. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    FMP - I'm not really interested in arguing or proving anything. You clearly have your mind made up and I have no illusion that there is anything I can say that will change your mind. I will take a moment to answer your question. The statistics as I stated come from the Ontario College of Teachers. The OCT found that far more women are qualified to be Principals and Supervisory Officers then men in the province of Ontario. When the College poled teachers who took these courses, the majority of teachers who took the courses said they took them to get a promotion. The information on how many men to women are Principals, Vice Principals and Supervisory Officers is publicly available in Ontario. There is a disconnect between the ratio of men to women who are qualified and say they want the job and the number of men to women who actually hold the job.

    I really posted for the benefit of anyone who is open to thinking about their privilege because I really think at least in Canada that we need to start acknowledging our privilege and that unions have a role to play in leveling the playing field. I have benefited from many aspects of my identify: being cisgendered, being white, being middle class. I acknowledge that my opportunities are not ONLY because of my hard work, skills but also because of my privilege.
     
  8. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    I don’t want to argue either, but this is a debate so...

    And I don’t think there is anything I can say to change your mind. My mind WOULD change if a reputable, repeatable, statistical study came out that said women were being discriminated against in the hiring process and the results were statistically significant. However, I have mountains of data which says to the contrary.

    I’m not disagreeing with you that these women are qualified. That much is obvious. I’m not calling into question their experience or credentials and I basically agree with the general premise of the study. However, you are interpreting the results to fit your narrative and that’s what I don’t like. Correlation does not equal causation.

    It could very well be that these women didn’t interview well. There could be lurking variables at play here and other confounding variables need to be accounted for.

    I think it boils down to this: Whenever there exists a disparity in terms of the gender makeup of a profession, you will probably arrive to the conclusion that discrimination has taken place. Maybe I’m speculating, but it seems like you and some others fallaciously seem to think if the gender breakdown isn’t 1:1, then that equals discrimination, which is absurd. In fact, I just showed you examples of several professions which are female dominated and there is no discrimination involved.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  9. FourSquare

    FourSquare Fanatic

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  10. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Wow, I am excited and happy for the West Virginia public schoolteachers. And thanks for posting the article! It was a great read.

    Question: Are they getting just a 5% raise or it is a renewable, yearly 5% raise? A one-time raise kinda sucks, but anything helps I guess.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  11. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Aw, thanks! :)
     
  12. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    I know, I love it!
     
  13. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    This is great news and I appreciate the link. Interesting read!

    Teachers could generate a lot of revenue this way. Maybe now teachers can negotiate their salaries on their own behalves like in the private industry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
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  14. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Devotee

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    Jun 30, 2018

    And then maybe we can all face conditions like they do in those states like Oklahoma and Airzona. That would be the dream. And all so I can put my lil' union dues in my pocket to have a little extra spending cash.
     
  15. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    Many industries don’t have unions and workers make way more money than us and have better benefits. I like that I can negotiate a higher salary for myself at my current workplace, but public schoolteachers cannot. Why is that?

    If unions are doing such a great job, then why are teachers paid so little despite their “efforts”? When teachers strike, the teachers are the ones who cause the change to happen, not the union. I guess they can thank their unions for their measly paychecks.
     
  16. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Devotee

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    I am compensated very fairly for teaching in my state, and I wouldn't want to change a thing. I will happily continue to pay union dues to ensure that conditions remain as they are.
     
  17. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    The majority are not, though, and many of those states have strong unions. Some states are atypical, but the common spread is that teachers are still underpaid, even in blue states. Take California, for instance. If you don’t have anything beyond a Bachelors, your salary tops out in the 50k range or below. Yeah, that’s so great, while people with Bachelors degree in the private sector can quickly make beyond that in a FEW years. Great job teachers unions! :rolleyes:
     
  18. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Devotee

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    Do you really think most teachers will be able to negotiate better deals on their own, and that the Board of Education has the time or resources to individually negotiate with each new employee in a larger district?
     
  19. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Enthusiast

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    How do middle and large companies do it with their thousands to tens of thousands of employees or more?
     
  20. Backroads

    Backroads Fanatic

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    Heck, I had a coworker at a public school who managed to negotiate a salary difference. It can be done if people work to make it the norm.
     
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