Janus case

Discussion in 'General Education' started by czacza, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Connoisseur

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    Then you’re reading too much into it. I am passionate about teaching mathematics AND making as much as money as I can to live a better life.
     
  2. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Habitué

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    Perhaps, but it does come off as "look at my Rolex, isn't it awesome"?
     
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  3. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Connoisseur

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    Hm, I guess you have a point there. I promise that I don’t mean to brag. I’m just an advocate for teachers — public and private — to make the most amount of money possible wherever the opportunity presents itself.

    Think of it like this: The comparison between the private and public sectors are commonly made for teachers and how much more they could be making in some other private sector job. If education is privatized in the sense that we can negotiate on our own behalf, then we could probably make way more than we do. For example, say someone graduates from MIT with a Masters in Computer Engineering and says, “The median starting salary for someone with my skill level is $75k. I want to make at least that, so I want $75k to start. That is what they should be paid and their salary stays that way until state test scores come out, principals do their observations, graduation rates come out, etc. It should be based on performance so the better you are, the more you get paid.
     
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  4. jadorelafrance

    jadorelafrance Cohort

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    I actually believe your school is the exception, not the rule. Granted I can’t see private school pay scales, but those that I know who work or have worked in private are paid less and have no pension plan, and pay for crap insurance. My BF got a 20k raise going from private to public (and this is after not even giving him all his deserved steps!). And much better benefits. Also statistically, private school teachers are paid less. You are in California, a union state with high COL. Your pay is probably on par with other surrounding districts in the region. I imagine some are higher, and some are lower. I’ve looked at some pay scales of public schools in various parts of Ca (I actually considered moving there) and man they are impressive. Again it’s great you’re able to do so well for yourself. But I don’t know anywhere around where I live that would make more working private and I don’t intend to make the jump.
     
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  5. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    By not wanting to or refusing to pay union dues, you’re essentially saying that you disagree with unions (although I know that people just don’t agree with the politics of unions, but still want to be représented. Whatever).

    I disagree with the CTA. I do not want them to represent me in any way.

    Should they then be dissolved? As long as unions exist with members, those non-union teachers will still benefit from the negotiations that the unions do for its members (salary/benefits, better working conditions etc.), even if non-union members can negotiate for themselves (they will at least be able to negotiate the same or higher salaries as union employees).

    No. I believe you have a first amendment right to assemble with like-minded individuals. If the result of you doing so ends up an advantage to someone else that is irrelevant.

    Do people really think they (the individual) can negotiate better than a union (a committee of multiple people)?

    Yes, because to me "better" means "negotiate in a way that best represents my personal desires and goals."

    I think unions also fight against inequality in pay. If everyone negotiated their pay, would there be more of a pay difference between men and women?

    Could be, I don't know. There are forums, like legislation, to deal with such issues. If, as some have argued, the union exists only to advance my position, this is beyond that scope.

    If non-union people who hate unions want them dissolved, what about the people who want a union? What’s the happy medium? Because as long as unions exist, everyone in that profession (and especially region) will benefit somehow. If we look at non-union states and see how well they’re doing....

    California recently was recognized as the least livable state. Our schools consistently rank poorly despite our abundance of wealth. We're heavily unionized.

    My bf worked at a private school for a number of years in an area of my state that has lower pay in general for teachers (lower cost of living). The admin threatened to fire teachers if they unionized. They constantly had their benefits worsened and pay cut (so they could create a beautiful admin building and beautify their campus) throughout the years that I don’t know how they could remain competitive. He eventually left.

    So the system worked. The school underpaid and the employee used his right to walk away. If he was a highly desired teacher then parents from the school would be upset and pull their kids out leaving the school recognizing their mistake.
     
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  6. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    The laws of supply and demand work well as does the free market economy, Pretty much everyone makes what they are worth in the marketplace. Teachers would make what we do with or without unions.

    The NFL QB makes more than the VP of sales who makes more than the district manager who makes more than the area GM of the Waffle House who makes more than the chef at the local restaurant who makes more than the local police chief who makes more than the head of the history department who makes more than the sales rep at the local appliance store who makes more than the shift manger at the local McDonald's who makes more than the stock clerk at the nearest Wal-Mart. It works itself out due to the universal laws of economics. The unions would have you believe otherwise but guess who they make their money from?
     
  7. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    also, here's the simplest way to tell if your pay is "fair' or not...look at the turnover amongst your colleagues. If jobs are turning over frequently, then the pay is "low' in consideration of all other factors. If teachers tend to stay for long periods of time and turnover is rare, that job is relatively "well paying". No matter what people might say otherwise.Watch how/where people move. This imo is the biggest indicator of pay rate in your local area as most human beings are programmed to complain about their jobs/pay/amount of homework/etc..
     
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  8. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Devotee

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    Mar 4, 2018

    Market forces work well to improve cell phones and cars, but they are largely ineffective with education. The reason for this is that politicians have a huge amount of influence on schools, and they respond to lobbyists and (sometimes gerrymandered) voting blocks.

    How to tell if you are paid enough: can you afford to live a modest, comfortable life and afford to send your kids to college and save for retirement? If not, you need more pay.
     
  9. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    Again, I would argue that market forces prevail. People still go into teaching knowing in advance the pay. All combined , the "entire package" - the benefits, schedule, opportunity to work with children, etc, - still has more people trying to enter the profession than there are jobs. Supply exceeds demand.
    You may argue that this is not true in STEM areas and I would agree - the demand exceeds the supply. Rationally, you would think that STEM teachers would thus make more than their counterparts in a true market economy. At this point I have to agree with you - market economics fail due to government (or political, if you prefer) intervention. Our government, like all others, simply is inefficient and impotent in the ways of true market economics. In the private sector, inefficiencies are driven out of the marketplace. In the public sector, inefficiencies are expected, ignored or celebrated.
     
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  10. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Devotee

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    I've had this same discussion with several of my the-free-market-solves-all-problems friends, and none of them are able to achieve the tone of cold, emotionless logic that you use. I hope to read lots of posts by you in the future.

    Despite your mature voice, I still believe your logic is flawed. If you will examine the efforts over the past 15 years of educational "reform", you 'll notice that teachers flourish and grow when they collaborate and not compete. Merit pay did not motivate teachers to try harder, but did motivate them to focus on the testing items and not the whole child. Charter schools have not found a better way of educating children, but did (and do) pull money from higher performing public schools where 90% of children attend. Vouchers have not improved outcomes for poor kids, but do pump public money into private and religious schools.
     
  11. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Connoisseur

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    I don’t believe that’s what this poster was suggesting, but I could be wrong. I think they meant that education should be privatized insofar as allowing teachers to negotiate their own salaries given their education level, experience, and skill set.

    Some things that they could negotiate with are their effective teaching status, AP/IB pass rates, state test score history, principal observation reviews, whether their students succeed or not (in terms of positive student outcomes), etc. Otherwise, I generally agree with the current system.

    Hopefully, that makes sense.
     
  12. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    One thing that collective bargaining does is level the playing field when it comes to factors like sex, race, and age. Women, people of color, and people who are considered too young or too old have long been compensated unfairly in the workplace. With salary schedules implemented and followed with fidelity, I have some reasonable assurances that the 20-something white dude who happens to be the nephew of the Superintendent's golfing buddy isn't going to "negotiate" a significantly higher salary simply based on his age, sex, race, or familiar status. The same is not true across other professions.
     
  13. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Connoisseur

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    So because one person or a few people abuse the system, the rest shouldn’t be able to negotiate? I wonder how all of those types of people you mention do it in the private industry.
     
  14. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Devotee

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    All teachers, private and public, benefit from collective bargaining. Because there's a salary schedule, does not preclude a teacher from negotiating which step to start out on.

    A wonderful kindergarten teacher down the hall is a member of two minority groups and had won several teaching awards in another state before coming to our school. He asked to be placed on step 10 despite only having 7 years of experience. They did it.
     
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  15. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    In the private industry, women make about 80 cents for each dollar that men make. That's a 20% gender pay gap. It's not "one person for a few people". It's a systemic problem.
     
  16. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Connoisseur

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    This has already been debunked several times by statisticians from numerous organizations, including Harvard and Stanford, plus others. When maternity leave, promotion rejections, and part-time workers are factored in, women make $0.99 for every dollar a man makes, virtually eliminating the pay gap. You are using misleading statistics and as a mathematician I am calling you out on it.

    For example, according to the Pew Research Center:

    “Why does a gender pay gap still persist? In our 2013 survey, women were more likely to say they had taken breaks from their careers to care for their family. These types of interruptions can have an impact on long-term earnings. Roughly four-in-ten mothers said that at some point in their work life they had taken a significant amount of time off (39%) or reduced their work hours (42%) to care for a child or other family member. Roughly a quarter (27%) said they had quit work altogether to take care of these familial responsibilities. Fewer men said the same. For example, just 24% of fathers said they had taken a significant amount of time off to care for a child or other family member.”

    Guess what? That figure you gave takes into account these women who take significant time off, so of course that’s going to affect the median salary!

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/03/gender-pay-gap-facts/?amp=1

    Also, please visit the following links for further details and studies conducted that counter what you said:

    https://harvardmagazine.com/2016/05/reassessing-the-gender-wage-gap

    https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/media/_media/pdf/key_issues/gender_research.pdf

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/amp/





     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Connoisseur

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    Very intellectual rebuttal.

    I’m going with Harvard, Stanford, and the US Department of Labor instead of a non-mathematician. Thanks.
     
  19. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Let's call it a motherhood penalty, then.

    And let's also take a look at how race factors into all of it.
     
  20. bella84

    bella84 Fanatic

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    I thought the gender pay gap was referring to two people with the same skill set and experience who do the same job... but where the man is paid more than the woman. Am I wrong?

    I don't think anyone is shocked when someone working in a lower position or fewer hours or after taking time off is making less than someone who has received a promotion, works more, and never took time off.

    Teachers can just as easily experience the "motherhood penalty", even with a salary schedule in place. Districts with salary schedules in place don't typically have situations where a male teacher and a female teacher with the same years of experience and the same education make different salaries. The salary schedule prevents that.

    *To be clear, I'm not advocating for salary schedules or unions in this post. Just clarifying what situations the gender pay gap refers to... Again, am I wrong?
     
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