Education is a Right that is easily compromised by teacher pay

Discussion in 'General Education' started by AlwaysAttend, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Habitué

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    Actually, charter schools want to be public schools when it suit their purposes. If they want tax payer money, they are public. When it comes to oversight, they do not want a democratically elected school board to set policy and hire leadership.

    They want to be public when they want space in public schools without paying rent, but they don't want to be public when it comes to showing how they spend the public money.

    This system is fraught with opportunities for fraud and corruption.

    In our state, public schools can be held accountable for waste or fraud, but there is no way to sanction charter schools. We have over 28,000 students taking money from taxpayers and no way to monitor it. Some of the charters have a 12% graduation rate, spend millions on TV ads, and tout choice as their reason for being.

    No effective school system in any other country has a crazy system like this.
     
  2. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    All charter schools are public schools. Their board meetings are open to the public. Not all public schools have elected school boards. It depends on the setup of their local government. All government money has accountability measures in place. I don't know how it is in your state but in NJ charter schools don't recieve money for facilities. They need to rent their own space. Sometimes they rent space in office buildings, former Catholic schools, or unused public school space.

    Denying reality doesn't make your position stronger, it makes it weaker. We had a charter school run by a local civil rights leader where they were scamming money by renting space from a building they owned. They were able to find out because of accountability measures and the school is now closed.

    Public school and private school employees are also arrested yearly for stealing money. You can't legislate morality. There are bad people everywhere.
     
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  3. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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    You can't legislate morality but you can create a system that is more or less transparent. So are there different rules for what public school boards and charters are required to make public? I'm not actually talking about what you can find out from attending a school board meeting - I'm curious if there are differences between what public boards and charters must publish in terms of accounting and measures of student success. I'm also curious AlwaysAttend where in the US public school boards are not elected?
     
  4. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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    In terms of a better system (post #99), I thought we were talking about the question of how pay impacts hiring (not what makes the best education system). Of course, we want to meet the needs of students but when talking about teacher pay, my point was that it isn't just pay - its also working conditions, the right to strike, etc. So to clarify when I was talking about the system being sick/ the best system possible, I'm not talking about the entire education system. I was talking about the hiring/ employee retention system.

    In terms of funding, my impression is that one major difference in the US is the commercialization of education. Everything from ads for schools to the amount of money spent on programs created by private companies to the idea of TeachersPayTeachers. I think there is enough money in the US system to pay teachers well and provide them with good working conditions. It's just that a lot of that money is being spent elsewhere

    By contrast, when teachers in my province started spiraling math, they posted their entire course for free online so teachers from across the province could use it. There are about 5 teachers who have done the majority of the legwork on this and now there are 1000s of teachers using the material. Why are they willing to do this? Because they work in a place that pays them well and provides for them and they just don't see a need to make a bucketload of money. They want to share it. I don't think this is a sign that teachers in Canada are "better." I think it highlights a different culture that comes when you treat employees well. The expectation where I work is that we share and learn from each other.

    So I do think the current system can look after its teachers, pay them well, treat them well. It just has to take precedence over other budget lines.
     
  5. tchr4vr

    tchr4vr Rookie

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    "You have charter schools in this state and NYC which I'm also familiar with easily outperforming local public schools in the state by a lot dispite what my union says is student cherry picking. It is not. "

    Now I can only speak from my experience, but the lottery school I worked at did cherry pick, to an extent. Yes, you made the lottery to get in, but there was a zero-tolerance policy. The slightest infractions got you kicked out. Tardies did not exist at my school--3 tardies and you were out. A single referral, and for the most part, you were out. We did have special ed, but not to the extent of most public schools. And again, not to bad mouth charter and private schools, because there are many that take special ed students, but they are not required by law to, but public school do--so if you are in a school that is 25% special ed (my school now), you are looking at an uphill battle.

    My poinit is--if you can choose who comes to your school and who stays, you will outperform others.
     
  6. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    In cities where they are appointed by the mayor. It deals with local government structure, not anything to do with education. Some also have appointed toun council members while others have to be elected.

    Everything they do is public record despite what is being said in this thread.
     
  7. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Some districts in America buy their curriculums while some write their own (paying teachers to do it).

    If people in my state are fighting tooth and nail for every job opening doesn't that suggest your sickness argument is only applicable in some school systems? No matter how much work a position has, people still want it. If it became unreasonable based on work or salary, they wouldn't have candidates.
     
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  8. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    They are required to take special education students and failing to do so is illegal.

    Is your argument that we should lower the standards and expectations in public charter schools to match traditional public schools?
     
  9. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Here is an opinion piece written in the NY York Times. It shows just like this thread, people see things through the lense they want to see them. I read it and immediately understood the bias of each example. For example, they used the difference in cohort size as an example of how they are removing students and not filling seats to keep scores high. It couldn't be more of a rediculous argument. Charter schools get money based on fannies in seats. They don't get anything out of empty ones. Anyone who knows urban education understands the transient nature of the population. The suggestion that all these kids left because their standards are too high is laughable. It is definitely true for some, but most students likely moved.

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...n?referer=https://www.google.com/&nytmobile=0
     
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  10. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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  11. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Habitué

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    Privately owned for profit charters can take public money and do not need to report how they spend the money. These businesses claim the rights of privately owned corporations when it suits them. In some places, like Ohio, NY and Florida, these for profit schools get more money per pupil than public schools and are not accountable for how they spend it.

    This is not democracy. Schools should have elected school boards and open books.
     
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  12. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Admittedly I don't know much about for profit charter schools except that I don't think they should exist. We can agree on that at least.

    I got this off of a charter website from California
    Are charter schools run by for-profit corporations?
    The vast majority of charter schools are operated by non-profit public benefit corporations. Many others are unincorporated, but governed by their school districts. To CCSA's knowledge, for profit charter schools represent less than 1% of charter schools in California. Out of almost 1,200 charter schools in the state, there are only six (6) charter schools that are organized as limited liability corporations. Regardless of how they are structured, they are subject to the laws governing all charter schools. Charters schools are public schools that must be non-sectarian, tuition-free and open to any student who wishes to attend. Their fiscal operations and compliance are overseen by their public entity authorizer.
     
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  13. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    I've never heard of a charter getting more money per pupil than a public school. Can you show me where I can find that info?
     
  14. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Habitué

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    Here's how these for-profit charters make themselves look like non-profits in my state: One of the worst [K12.Inc] will set up a non-profit board in a small school district. Then this board "hires" K12.Inc to manage their on-line charter. K12 charges far more money per pupil than the new non-profit gets in state revenue. Quickly the non-profit goes into deep debt, but when K12 "forgives" some of the debt, K12 suddenly shows a loss and doesn't need to pay state corporate taxes. Their test scores and graduation rates are the worst in the state making them basically dropout factories that make hundreds of millions in profits, but pay little or no taxes.

    Be skeptical when you hear a charter is a non-profit.
     
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  15. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    WHy doesn't your state seek to change it instead of whining about it?

    My state monitors charters schools like a hawk. We have one that catered specifically to the needs of teen moms that wasn't able to hold its own, another that failed on helping those with autism. The state had them shut down after a probationary period. There was monitoring, there was oversight.

    Or is just easier to complain instead of the state doing its job?
     
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  16. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    I do want to take a moment to play devil's advocate on "cherry-picking students". I actually do know a small group of parents at my school that mistakenly thought the school DID have higher selectiveness, or at least ease at kicking students out. Hence one of the main appeals of the charter.

    Our school is Title 1, a majority of minorities, lots of poverty, gang and drug violence, the whole 9 yards... and a huge SPED program.

    One dad was horrified when he realized the home lives of some of our students.

    I know of 5 students who have been expelled. 4 of them were for HUGE HUGE HUGE misbehavior on the 9th grade Spain trip. One was exceedingly abusive to other students in the bullying manner and was kicked out for pretty much the reason any school would kick out a violent student.

    Other than that, no. We try to teach bullies, our SPED department is awesome, but as far as I can tell there is no significantly desire to boot kids out.

    But this dad, who was a nice guy but a little naïve, was hoping his kids could attend school without lots of distractions from problem behavior. Bullies and violent kids would be promptly expelled, class wouldn't be disrupted by emotional meltdowns...

    Now, is this so terrible a desire? Is it wrong to want your kids to have a mostly peaceful and focused school session? Isn't this one reason some parents pick private school where they can reasonably hope disruptive students are simply removed?
     
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  17. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Habitué

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    I would appreciate your advice on how to do this. I prepared an annotated report on the issue and met with my state senator and representative. This is an hour drive for me. They were polite but distant. Later I looked it up and noticed that K12 had given $5,000 to the senator and $3,000 to the rep. I feel helpless.
     
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  18. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    I have a neighbor in politics. I could talk to her for suggestions.
     
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  19. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Habitué

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    We all desire this. Where did those expelled students go? To the public school? Then your school is cheery picking. In my state, when a charter takes a SPED student, they get twice the per pupil money. As a result, the charters eagerly take the soft problem students and dish the hard ones to public. Why should this be allowed?
    btw: I'm certain you are a dedicated teacher, working on a sincere, dedicated staff. I completely respect the job you do every day. I just think it's wrong to have a parallel school system that won't accept the hardest kids and takes money from the already underfunded public system.
     
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  20. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    That is the problem. In our situation, it becomes the student's local district's problem. If we worked for the district, there is protocol for ensuring an education plan for the expelled student. We are a lone wolf school. Sure, we report the expulsion to the state, but then what? They still kick it back to the student's family to look at their local district. It's not like we have a sister school or alternative charter school to send the kid to.

    But is it cherry picking? If a regular district-controlled public school can expel a kid for the same reasons, why should a charter school be required to keep him? Why should a regular public school be able kick out a violent student in the name of protecting the other students and a charter school not?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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