Education is a Right that is easily compromised by teacher pay

Discussion in 'General Education' started by AlwaysAttend, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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    AlwaysAttend, I really am still not understanding your perspective. In terms of charters, it just seems like you have 2 views that aren't compatible. You started this thread saying that teachers need to be paid well. I think you are also saying that you believe in charters. You state that charters have high turn over because teachers are treated poorly. I don't see how that is the solution to what you identify as the unique needs of the US. To me a solution has to work for all players to be a sustainable solution. What I am asking is what specifically are the unique needs of the US that make it different from every other country in the world and what about charters, in your view, makes them the solution?

    In terms of unions, even in Canada, we have significant limits. For example, we can't just strike once a month (like was suggested in the other thread). There are very specific rules for striking. We have to be without a contract for a specific amount of time, then we have to vote for a strike, then the union has to file something about its intent to strike, then we strike. Then if the province orders us back to work, we have to go back and we can't strike again. Sick outs are also illegal and are considered labour action - which has to follow the laws on labour actions/ strikes. If we did that our union leadership can face significant legal consequences both in terms of the union as a whole and as individuals. The union also can't ask us to do something when we aren't in a strike position. So, for example, teachers are upset about a change our District made and some asked if we could organize to not attend a specific event (since it is outside of our contract hours and it is not a contractual obligation) but we aren't allowed to organize an action outside of a strike. And our unions do take the government to court when necessary. In BC we took them to the Supreme Court and won but the government can still limit the rights of unions. They just change the law when they don't like what unions are doing or they don't like us winning a ruling.
     
  2. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Charters in my state don't pay less than the public schools. Sometimes they pay more. I do know of one that pays less but they moved here from a different area and I have no doubt will be closed soon. High turnover also occurs in many urban public schools.

    In America we have a very diverse population. I'll give you an example of how charters have met that need. One of our charters in a very hispanic neighborhood opened as a dual language school taught in spanish and english immersion. Not something easily replicated in a traditional public school.

    My positions on teachers and schools are pretty clear. I expect teachers to be excellent and well paid so that you have candidates who can be excellent. I expect schools to be excellent whether they are public, public charter, private/independent, or private/religious.

    My point in the other thread was clear that I would threaten a strike monthly to get PR in the news to highlight an issue. My question about sick outs was a question to someone who seemed to know more about labor law in right to work states.
     
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  3. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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    I work in a pretty diverse part of the province. The national statistics really don't do justice to our diversity. Anyway, in our system specialized schools (such as the one in your example) are run by the traditional public school districts so it's interesting that these can't exist in the public system.

    So in NJ are you allowed to threaten a strike monthly?

    I've been involved in my union for my entire career and we do discuss the policies in different provinces and states because it all has an impact. In fact, our union people get very concerned about some of what is happening in the US. We even financially support US unions that are fighting critical fights. This concept on threatening strikes monthly as a legal option is new to me.
     
  4. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Companion

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  5. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Companion

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    I'm also in NJ, and I do think charters generally pay less.

    https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2014...-paying-charter-schools-in-nj-have-in-common/

    This one isn't specific to NJ, but :

    https://www.screenflex.com/working-private-public-charter-school/

    They may also require you to work longer hours, and in some cases, longer school years. I am not exactly sure how benefits work for charter schools though.

    I don't think charter schools are inherently bad or evil, but I also think don't have a lot of faith in them.
     
  6. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    I did my admin internship at a charter in Newark and we used the Newark public school pay scale.

    Hours and school year are longer in most cases that's why I mentioned the turnover. In turnaround public schools they end up with similar hours though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  7. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    I'm honestly not sure because we've never had an issue like this come up.

    Strike might have been too strong of a notion. Maybe just a statewide walkout or demonstrations before school. The point was embarrassing the state.
     
  8. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Devotee

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    What are some of these new strategies that charters know about? As far as I can tell, they do constantly raise test scores when they have high attrition rates thus keeping only the highest performing students. Another trick to raise scores is to make sure students with limited English, IEPs or behavior problems are counseled out or not admitted. This raises scores.

    If charters know some secret sauce, why don't they share it?

    I'm certain that good charters exist and sincere, talented teachers work in them. But I'm against giving public money to a parallel system that does not out perform the public schools.
     
  9. a2z

    a2z Phenom

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    Yet you told everyone how it is in right to work states when that isn't always the case, lol. Don't tell me how it is in my area.
     
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  10. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    My home state is number 4 on the list and my current state is number 31. There is a very stark difference in competition for teaching jobs between the two states. We aren't as bad off as some places where they start the year with tons of openings, but we'll get maybe 20-50 applicants for an opening while schools in my home city will get thousands. I find that the general public has a much better perception of teachers here. People I meet outside of work always have nice things to say when they hear that I'm a teacher and I've regularly gotten things like a free drink, free appetizer, etc. even at places that don't have a discount policy. In my home city the perception of teachers is very negative and there are constant "overpaid and underworked" type comments. The district I grew up in has been trying to pass a bond (for new buildings) for many years and the mudslinging there about the lazy, greedy teachers is just awful. I can only assume that some of that stems from jealousy about how well teachers are paid there whereas the average Joe in my area realizes teachers have a raw deal here.

    As far as changing my situation, I have thought about moving but the truth is as far as places people actually want to live, my current state is way better than my home state. Sure I'd have a lot more money, but there isn't really much to do with it there! My best friend got a job just a couple of hours from where we grew up. We make a similar salary and she pays $550 per month to rent an entire house while I pay $1320 per month for a 600 sq. ft. apartment. However, she has to drive 30 minutes to even get to places like basic chain restaurants or basic stores like Target, whereas entertainment wise I have pretty much anything I would ever want at my fingertips. I do worry that there will become a point where I am simply "priced out" of being able to live here, but I'm not quite there yet.
     
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  11. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    Utah's not bad on the list, but we recently had a salary war with districts to bring in more teachers (it seems to have worked well enough.)

    In our case it seems it's not just salary. We're something of a state that expects people to have families, so you have cases where men won't teach because they want to provide better for a family and women leaving teaching to raise families. For the men wanting to support families, the wage increase was great, though I don't know how much effect it had on women wanting to stay home with kids. Overall it did manage to get more teachers of whatever.

    It's amusing because my husband, unable to find a career in his degree, joined a company that I don't even think requires a high school diploma (he has a lot of idiot underlings, though I don't know if that has a real correlation to the high school diploma or if he just attracts idiot underlings). He generally loves his job... and now makes more than me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
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  12. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Companion

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    I've worried about that eventually feeling "priced out" as well. I think my salary is fine, but rent and other things are expensive, and I worry that before I upgrade from my apartment to a house I will either have to get married or find a job as an administrator.
     
  13. Backroads

    Backroads Enthusiast

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    I teach at a charter... and it's a lot more rigorous than the regular public school I taught at. Yep, teachers are expected to have credentials and I actually think the state bars them from hiring someone who doesn't have a license/special in a licensing program.

    We're a rather boring charter (we broke off from a private Catholic school, no business runs it, mostly just parents and a board, which I know goes against the Hateful Charters mantra, but there it is), but wow, we have goals and strategies and all that. We do fit the charter trend with having a high percentage of minorities in our population and we have a lot of poverty. We also made awesome gains on our reading skills this past year.

    And no, we don't give out our cellphone numbers. Never have, and this year we were actually told it flirts way too much with breaking certain privacy laws that I think those teachers who were giving out private numbers are too scared to.

    I think I know what brand of charter school you are referring to, though.
     
  14. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    They do share them with those that listen. You ignoring reality is not helpful. I won't dignify your post with any further response because I already addressed your bogus theories above.

    I'm a proud public school teacher and people who deny facts are an embarrassment to the profession.
     
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  15. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Phenom

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    I'm in KY. I'm happy with my benefits and salary. I live comfortably on my salary. I bought my own house at 28. I have everything I need and most of what I want. My DH is a,so a teacher. He is also satisfied.

    Sure, there are plenty of problems with education, but salary isn't at the top of my list.
     
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  16. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Enthusiast

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    Interestingly enough Kentucky is number 9 on the list. If you were further down do you think it would bother you?
     
  17. Ima Teacher

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    Well, I've never taught anywhere else, so I don't know.

    Here is what I do know. I have friends in different fields, and our benefits and salaries vary widely, as does the education levels we attained. The commonality is that we all chose our fields. Nobody made me choose teaching. Nobody made me stay with it for 25 years. If I continue to stay with a job where I am dissatisfied, that's my fault.

    My DH has BS degrees in computer science and math. He has a MA in teaching. He could make a lot more money using his other degrees, but he is doing what he wants to do. I considered law school at one point, but I decided I wasn't ready to leave teaching. I'm happy with my decision to stay.
     
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  18. svassillion

    svassillion Rookie

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    I can't say I think too highly of the charter schools is MA. There are a few good ones, but the majority of them underperform compared to their sending districts. And I put none of that on the teachers. I've met so many colleagues who started their careers at charters and said it was just a nightmare, but they are excellent teachers. The reason I don't agree with them is because they could do things public schools couldn't such as kick out the most challenging students, not accept students with pricey IEPs, and operate behind closed doors. Those are things public schools can't do so charters take the best and the brightest along with a big chunk of our budget. One of our ballet questions last year was whether to raise the cap on charter schools and it was strongly defeated. But it was a hard fight for our unions because the other side was funded by out-of-state billionaires who could make serious profits with charters. We even have regulations outlawing for-profit charters, but when they aren't forced to disclose their books who knows what's going on. Something just doesn't feel right about it. But I can't speak for charters nation-wide, just the ones I see in my area.
     
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  19. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    OK.

    The views expressed here are not reflective of any actual teacher I've met in my 40 years. They are, however, reflective of government and for-profit anti-teacher, anti-labor rhetoric we have heard a lot of in Indiana over the past decade.

    You cannot engage with people who want nothing more than your destruction.

    I was willing to give contrary opinions a chance, but this is purely adversarial and I doubt any teacher out there has missed the anti-teacher rhetoric being thrown their way, or appreciates having it dismissed or even justified.

    No more.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  20. 2ndTimeAround

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    No I didn't, I specifically mentioned my state in my first post and then my subsequent posts answered questions. It's okay if you missed that sub-thread, but maybe you should temper your replies a bit so you don't come across as calling someone a liar.
     

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