Clearing Credential Overseas

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Jobless, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Jobless

    Jobless New Member

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    Jun 27, 2018

    Hello,

    I live in CA and have a preliminary credential that doesn't expire until 2023. Last year I wasted my time subbing thinking that it would open the door at the two districts I sub at. Big mistake, because they didn't even want to interview me.

    I have applied to about 40 districts and only interviewed twice, these same districts are in the worst part of CA location wise. I am thinking if I can't get a job in the middle of the desert, than I have little chance at any of the other locations I applied.

    Recently I received a pretty decent job offer from an International School overseas. The only dilemma is I need to clear my credential. I know that CGU offers a program but the cost is nearly $20K, which is absolutely ridiculous. Does anyone know another University that doesn't price gouge their students?
     
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  3. txbelle

    txbelle Rookie

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    Jun 27, 2018

    I don't know anything about requirements for going overseas to teach but that seems like a lot of money. What about applying to districts in another state? You would still have to relocate but it must be a little easier to transfer between states.

    Good luck in whatever you decide to do!
     
  4. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Jun 27, 2018

    It seems unfathomable to me that you can’t find a job here in CA. They’re plentiful. Have you checked EdJoin lately? There are still lots of postings up.
     
    futuremathsprof likes this.
  5. Jobless

    Jobless New Member

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    Jun 27, 2018

    Thank you for your help. The problem is other states might not offer the BTSA induction program, so I am back to square one and would still need a University to clear my credential.
     
  6. Jobless

    Jobless New Member

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    I have applied to more than 50 districts in CA using Edjoin.

    So far I have had two interviews that resulted in rejection. Lots of emails from other districts telling me they won't hire me. Can you tell me which districts are understaffed. I live in SoCal and the job market is so tight you can't even find a job in Barstow.
     
  7. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    I live in Central California. But I searched EdJoin and found several positions you should apply for in SoCal:
    https://www.edjoin.org/Home/JobPosting/480788
    https://www.edjoin.org/Home/JobPosting/1037917
    https://www.edjoin.org/Home/JobPosting/1065746
    https://www.edjoin.org/Home/JobPosting/1065868
    https://www.edjoin.org/Home/JobPosting/1064968
     
  8. txbelle

    txbelle Rookie

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    Jun 27, 2018

    Is the BTSA induction similar to alternative certification to teach? I googled it but I'm still unsure what the program is for. Sorry, I'm just curious.
     
  9. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Fanatic

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    No, BTSA is an induction program that ALL California public schoolteachers have to complete in order to clear their preliminary 5-year teaching credential. Luckily for me, I worked as a private schoolteacher for two years after I got my provisional license and so I only had to do the 1-year BTSA instead of the normal 2-year BTSA as I was deemed a highly effective teacher by the local district department. Now, I have a Clear Credential and have to pay a fee to renew it every 5 years.

    You will find that the credentialing process in CA is incredibly outdated and psychotically stupid. Good news for out-of-state teachers and substitute teachers, please visit the following links for details:

    https://www.csba.org/Newsroom/CSBANewsletters/2018/May/ElectronicOnly/2018_0509legupdate.aspx?p=1

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2285
     
  10. txbelle

    txbelle Rookie

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    Jun 27, 2018

    Oh wow! I just have to finish my degree, which includes one semester of student teaching. I also have to pass the certification test, content test, and pay any fees required. After that, I'm good to go, I can apply and work for a district. I guess I should feel lucky I don't have to jump through all those hoops.
     
  11. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Jun 28, 2018

    Forty applications and only two interviews? The OP might need to pay some attention to packaging: the cover letter almost certainly needs work, and it may be that the resume isn't very effective either.
     
  12. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    As to the relative difficulty of licensure processes, the fact is that one state may choose to locate its difficulties in different places than another state does.

    In most states, the standard path to licensure includes a bachelor's degree in education with a minor in subject matter plus subject-matter testing plus, in many cases, testing in pedagogy and professional practices (and, for more and more elementary teachers, testing in reading instruction). Anyone holding a bachelor's degree in some other subject goes through alternative licensure, and doing so rather than going through the standard path can create obstacles to employment, at least in the early years. Many if not most states follow a two-stage licensure model - preliminary or conditional licensure for three to five years followed by clear or permanent or professional-level licensure thereafter. Many states also seem to require some kind of continuing education (I wish more of that were in subject matter), and in at least two states that I know of a master's degree is expected in the first five years of teaching.

    In California, fairly few institutions even offer a bachelor's in education per se, because the standard path to a teaching credential begins after one obtains a bachelor's degree in some subject: a postgraduate program of one to two years (that includes, for all teachers, an endorsement in working with English learners) plus subject-matter testing (and, for elementary teachers, testing in reading instruction) plus testing in teaching practice via edTPA. The newly minted and newly hired teacher then undergoes BTSA, most usually through the hiring school district. BTSA was originally envisioned, I think, as high-powered mentoring with accountability on both sides built in; one-year versions have popped up in various places, and, as with the wrongly vilified Common Core, faults in local execution shouldn't be blamed on the concept. A few other states seem to have sprouted first-year teacher programs similar to BTSA, so California isn't unique here. The requirement of 150 hours of continuing education that AB 2285 (text in futuremathsprof's second link) would eliminate for out-of-state teachers was dropped for in-state teachers about a decade ago, I think.

    On balance I like most of California's model, though I wish the Ed.D.s who teach the English-language development and reading-instruction coursework had a better grasp of the linguistics underlying what they're attempting to teach.
     
  13. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Fanatic

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    I agree that continuing education classes should be mandatory and that NEW prospective teachers should have to student teach in some form and pass the required certification exams to be licensed. That is not in contention. Where I strongly disagree with the current model is having applicants complete redundant programs for the sake of rigor.

    What the California CTC needs to recognize are years of teaching experience and out-of-state teaching licenses. Why should a teacher who has taught for, say 20 years, in an adjacent state have to do an induction program? Also, why are there so many different certification tests? Math is math regardless of geography, as is science and foreign language. There should be a nationally recognized test that is the same for everyone.

    With that said, I like how different states have reciprocity with many other states and accept their teaching licenses in lieu of ones issued by their state credentialing departments. California is moronic in that it one of the most difficult states in which to become certified to teach in its public schools. There are numerous articles you can read online indicating just how difficult it is for teachers to become licensed and it is further evidenced by how enrollment and teaching graduates have been in decline for over ten consecutive years.

    It is not economical or reasonable to expect someone to get a Bachelors degree, and in many cases a Masters degree (another 1-2 years), to undergo a 1-2 year teaching credential program where student teachers are not paid for 6 months to a year, to pass the CBEST, CSETs, and/or RICA depending on your certification, and then compete a 1-2 year BTSA program which entails one having to submit incredibly stupid and repetitive reports of stuff you already learned in your teaching credential program, all the while teaching full time so that you can finally “show” you know what you’re doing. That’s 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 or 7 years of schooling minimally! And this does not include the student teaching and time spent on certifications. And then here’s the kicker: You start at $40,000 and get crappy pay increases, and you guessed it, more fees and bureaucratic BS. More hoops and red tape to navigate through.

    I make great money, but other public schoolteachers make absolutely deplorable pay and it’s not fair at all.

    Why should a teacher who has been teaching for decades and deemed highly effective in another state have to prove that they know their subject matter in CA? If the teacher has excellent state test scores, top notch AP/SAT/ACT scores, exemplary reviews by credentialing teams and administrators, can prove years of successful full-time teaching experience, etc, etc., then they obviously can teach. They shouldn’t have to take the CBEST and CSETS and do an induction program like newbies fresh out of college that will teach them absolutely nothing they don’t already know. It’s just bureaucratic bull crap and a racket the California CTC and testing agencies encourage to make more money they don’t deserve.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  14. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    The reason that states have their own certification tests is simple, and a topic touched on when a credential program covers educational law: Primary control of education is at the state level, not the national level. The federal government can dictate some aspects, and one of those is that teacher certification should include basic-skills and subject-matter testing, but implementation is left up to the states.

    Each state decides how to divide the subject matter pie into curricular slices: whether to treat elementary education as one band (K-6) or to go with pre-K-3 and grades 4-8; whether elementary teachers are responsible for music, art, and PE (as in California) or not; whether to treat theatre, journalism, and speech as part of the English credential as California currently does or to split one or more of those off into their own licensure areas as, e.g., New York and Massachusetts do; whether to treat civics, economics and geography as social science along with history or split them as, say, Illinois does, or even whether to distinguish in licensure between US history and world history as Oklahoma does; whether to offer less commonly taught world languages such as Punjabi or Italian and which ones to offer; and more.

    I trust you'll agree that, if each state can make these choices, then the licensure tests used in the state ought to be aligned to those choices rather than to the choices made by another state. But it follows that a state can make its own decisions as to what an incoming teacher must do for certification - and I'm confident that you'll agree that, if Florida has one test for math certification rather than distinguishing between middle-school and higher math, a Californian with a Foundational-level Math credential had darned well better pass the Florida test in order to be licensed to teach math in Florida.

    Now I am going to take you to task. You haven't done your homework, and you've stretched your claims beyond credibility. Both moves undercut your credibility badly.

    For the first, go read https://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentials/out-of-state-high-sch on credentialing for high school teachers prepared out of state. Does it state that every incoming teacher, irrespective of previous experience, MUST take all of the state tests and go through BTSA? No: merely that the incoming application materials will be analyzed to see what the incoming teacher should take to be in compliance with California's rules. Follow it up with https://www.ctc.ca.gov/docs/default-source/leaflets/cl667.pdf?sfvrsn=91a6cf60_26 - and, yes, I do mean the whole thing - on options for the basic-skills requirement; this document anticipates your calls for options other than CBEST.

    Your reasoning is either slipshod or deliberately wrong: your "That’s 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 or 7 years of schooling minimally! And this does not include the student teaching and time spent on certifications." effectively asserts that student teaching occurs outside the timeframe of the credential program (it doesn't), that BTSA's one to two years somehow always occur outside the timeframe of the first two years of teaching (they don't, if one has been hired), that the state of California requires a master's degree for initial credentialing (the state doesn't even require a master's for a clear credential) and that obtaining a master's somehow occurs outside the timeframe of a teaching career (it doesn't, even in the several states that do require a master's for a level II (=clear) license).

    Going forward, please also pay at least a modicum of attention to the reality that your experience of credentialing and even the rumors on which you've battened are neither typical of everyone else's in all states nor necessarily exemplary.

    Now I am going to take you to task.

    Your screed might be more credible, leaving aside some unfortunate choices of diction, if you'd actually been presenting facts rather than fever dreams. Please do your homework, unless you want to confirm a reputation as someone who shoots from the hip and misses.

    You've railed about California's test as iron-clad requirements for out of state teachers. Go read https://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentials/out-of-state-high-sch on credentialing for high school teachers prepared out of state. Pay more attention to what it says and doesn't say than what you've allowed yourself to believe that it says. Must , and follow it up with https://www.ctc.ca.gov/docs/default-source/leaflets/cl667.pdf?sfvrsn=91a6cf60_26 - and, yes, I do mean the whole thing - on options for the basic-skills requirement. And please don't insult your intelligence by trying to weasel out of your claim

    Your math is either slipshod or deliberately wrong: your "That’s 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 or 7 years of schooling minimally! And this does not include the student teaching and time spent on certifications." effectively asserts that student teaching occurs outside the timeframe of the credential program (it doesn't), that BTSA's one to two years somehow always occur outside the timeframe of the first two years of teaching (they don't, if one has been hired), that the state of California requires a master's degree for initial credentialing (the state doesn't even require a master's for a clear credential) and that obtaining a master's somehow occurs outside the timeframe of a teaching career (it doesn't and never has).
     
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  15. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Fanatic

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    I think that you and I are 100% in agreement that states should be able to choose how their students are taught and how their curriculums are decided. I’m not in any way saying Florida, for example, should determine the curricula in California and vice versa. My point is that, at least I hope you now see, there should be national tests that cover all the subject matter one can teach for certain grade levels so there is no question about subject matter competency. You know, just how the SAT is accepted at pretty much every college in the USA, or how passing the national pharmacy test enables you to practice pharmaceutical medicine in EVERY state. Same thing goes for how the Uniform Bar Exam is accepted in more than 3/5 of US States to practice law. Or how there are national tests to practice human medicine and veterinary medicine and they are accepted, you know, nationally.

    Why should education be any different?

    Yes, if a teacher has a lesser certification that does not cover all subject matter in a particular discipline, then they should be required to take the certification state in another state. But, if one has a Full Credential in Math — so they are qualified to teach pre-algebra through AP Calc BC — then there is nothing else that is not covered in any other state where Math is concerned in high school. I’m not talking about people who are certified in K-3 and try to teach in K-6 in another state. That doesn’t even make sense to think that that would make sense. Meaning, if there is an obvious gap, then of course the person applying has to make up the difference. However, if the person is qualified to teach say, grades 6-12, and has demonstrated subject matter competency in all of the subject areas taught therein already, then what’s the problem? Reminds me of another poster on here who was deemed unqualified after years of teaching science because the district changed the policy on the credential they would accept. => More bureaucratic BS.

    Many districts increasingly require teachers to eventually get a Masters degree to even be considered to be hired unless they are really desperate (I recall reading a few posts on here of people who are involved in the hiring process and didn’t even look at applicants with anything less than a Masters degree), so their continued employment is contingent on their having one in some places. I’d imagine that some opt to get it sooner rather than later because of the time constraint, so that increases the years of schooling.

    Let me breakdown my numbers because you are making inferences outside of what I am saying:

    4 = Bachelors degree

    1 = Masters degree (if accelerated)

    1 = BTSA (the 1-year option)

    1 = teaching credential program with or without student teaching

    At my undergrad university (one of the largest in the country) the only teaching credential program offered at the time — it could have changed since then — was one in which you completed your Masters degree concurrent with your teaching credential program. This included student teaching. All of my friends (11) who graduated from the math department and went on to teach in public schools did 4 years as an undergrad, 1.5 years in the aforementioned program (1 year of schooling and one-half year of student teaching), and 2 years of BTSA. For them, there was no way around it.

    As a seasoned educator, you should be well aware of alternate routes to certification, yes? I completed a teaching credential program with the exception of student teaching and used my private school teaching experience to become licensed because I was considered a teacher of record. I did my “student teaching” outside the program and was awarded a certificate that showed I completed my program. If you look at the numbers, more and more aspiring teachers are completing alternate routes so my experience is becoming the norm. Normative teaching credential programs (that is, the traditional route) are in rapid decline in CA.

    I will concede I did not know there were alternatives to the CBEST for our-of-state applicants. That link was mightily useful. My original thought process was this: What is the point of assessing if an experienced educator knows how to analyze literary works or to do basic arithmetic? How could they have got that far without knowing how to do that?

    Does that make sense now?

    Yes, I am a strong advocate that NEW teachers entering the profession should have to take the certification tests in CA, regardless if they are applying from in state or out of the state. What I think needs to be accounted for is years of teaching experience versus newbies just starting

    Where did I say that BTSA always occurs outside the first 1-2 years of teaching? Show me the quotation. There are teachers who sometimes wait until their preliminary credential expires to do it and then apply for a one-time extension so it is possible, but I never said that it is always outside of the first one to two years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  16. andreadana

    andreadana Rookie

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    Oct 8, 2018

    Does anyone know of an inexpensive online commission approved induction program to clear my credential? This is driving me insane that I have to do this as I have been a teacher for 18 years. It is very hard for me to come up with 5000$ to do whatever this course is. Any tips would be so greatly appreciated
     
  17. tchr4vr

    tchr4vr Companion

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    Oct 9, 2018

    And while I agree states should have control, it needs to be more equal across the board. I live in VA, and to get a history credential, you have to have 18 credits in a variety of subjects and take the Praxis. No problem. However, in NC, you can take the Praxis and get credentialed in history, no course work required. If I work for a year in NC as a history teacher, I'll get reciprocity. Does that make me qualified to teach history--maybe or maybe not. Because I'm credentialed in another state, I can at least list it on my resumes if I'm looking for work--if they hired me here in VA to teach history, I'd have a few years to finish the credential. I think it needs to be more consistent across the board. Rigor is good, but an induction program--no way. I've switched schools several times, and invariably, I have to attend new teachers training, even though I have years of experience--a waste of afternoons and summer.
     
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  18. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Fanatic

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    Oct 10, 2018

    Agreed. It’s for the sake of *perceived* rigor. Just like having to take the US Constitution exam to become certified in CA because “reasons.” I understand requiring teachers to complete a background check and having them demonstrate their subject-matter competency and having aspiring teachers receive on-the-job training in the classroom, but taking a civics test? It’s complete nonsense. Just like when I had to take a class on how to teach young adolescents to read to get my math certification. I was irritated the whole way through, but I still had to do it because a group of bureaucrats in Sacramento, CA decided that it was necessary.

    By contrast, the class I took on how to teach ELL students in my teaching credential program was *way* more useful and I actually apply what I learned in said class regularly. Not once — at least I think — have I used any of the teaching strategies that were covered in the K-3 reading class. Furthermore, another class I took on how on reach all learners and to use technology to teach math and such were infinitely more practical and pertinent to my job.
     

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