California - LA Superior Court judge rules tenure unconstitutional

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by joeschmoe, Jun 10, 2014.

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  1. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Companion

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  3. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

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    I think it's a big deal that it went through. Pennsylvania is considering similar legislation. I have a feeling we'll see a lot more being repealed across the US. California tends to start trends in education.

    What really angers me is they are saying they did it for the poor kids-because they deserve good teachers too. What they could have done for those kids with the money they spent on a lengthy lawsuit....
     
  4. yellowdaisies

    yellowdaisies Enthusiast

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    I was really surprised to hear about this today. I think there will be a ripple effect from this. CA is a pretty influential state.

    The disparity, including educational inequality, between the haves and have nots in California is disgusting, but I really don't think it has anything to do with tenure. This is just an example of focusing on the wrong issue.

    This doesn't affect me personally at all since I work at a charter, but I'm still curious and scared to see where this leads.

    I had to stop myself from reading more than 2 or 3 comments...nothing makes me angrier than the comments on these education articles.
     
  5. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

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    I think what disheartens me more than anything are the comments following this article. It's basically a chorus of:

    I don't have any job protection so why should teachers? Your job is a piece of cake anyway!


    I predict within 10 years public education will either be eliminated or in the small minority.
     
  6. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Companion

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    A cynical part of me wish everything they want comes to fruition (union abolished, test based evaluations, privatized education, etc.) so they can see first hand how stupid they are.
     
  7. KinderCowgirl

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    I used to think it was only cynics who thought that, but now I truly believe that as well. The PR machine has done a really good job at only getting negative stories out in the media. I don't think people really understand the process for teachers. And Arne Duncan was all for it, so that should tell you something as well.
     
  8. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

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    They may find themselves with a bunch of high school drop-outs teaching the K-12 students. No self-respecting person with a bachelor's or advanced degree will take the job. (Who knows? Maybe they're deliberately trying to attract people who'll work for $9-an-hour!)

    :dunno:
     
  9. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Aficionado

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    I really wish the general public would stop actively hating teachers and public education. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that some people in power really want the general population to be poorly educated.
     
  10. HeartDrama

    HeartDrama Connoisseur

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    I'm going to play devil's advocate here, and I think the only reasons I can are that a) I haven't been teaching long enough, and b) I'm at a charter so it doesn't have an immediate effect on me anyway.

    Here are two examples of issues that have arisen here in LA.
    Teachers in Huntington Park were put right back into the hiring pool (because it's cheaper than firing them) when they were laid off. They were still paid. Any open positions in that district had to go to one of them before they could go to a recent graduate. One of my professors during my credential program taught at this school and was laid off. He was mad about it, but he had another job before the end of the semester. The districts hands are tied, they have to hire the displaced teachers first.

    Then you ave guys like this a-hole, who don't get caught abusing kid for YEARS, end up with tenure and will STILL get paid a pension! Why is there no distinction between a child molester and a teacher whose test scores are on the low side?
     
  11. GeetGeet

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    i agree.
     
  12. mathteachertobe

    mathteachertobe Comrade

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    Just to clarify, this is not a law that was enacted, but a court decision rendered by a single judge. My California public school terminated four tenured staff members last year, almost ten percent of the tenured staff. I find the argument that terminations are impossible to effect in the face of tenure to be ridiculous. The cause of poor teachers continuing to be employed in California schools is primarily that administrators are unwilling to make the hard choices they are being paid to make.
     
  13. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Aficionado

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    To put it bluntly, any tenured teacher anywhere in the US, at any K-12 school that needs to be fired, WOULD be fired if administration did their due diligence.
     
  14. scmom

    scmom Enthusiast

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    I see this over and over and over again.
     
  15. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Hmmm... It will be interesting to see what happens now.
     
  16. HeartDrama

    HeartDrama Connoisseur

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    Did you see the article I posted? I don't know about in other areas of the country, but UTLA is extremely well funded and has strong influence on public policy along with really good lawyers. They can poke holes in due diligence with ease, the result is teachers who resign with payoffs rather than being fired. This ultimately costs the district more than just keeping the teachers on and shuffling them to schools where parents won't complain.
     
  17. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Interesting point. I remember when I went through my credential program my professor, also a HS principal, talked about a time she fired a tenured teacher. There is a process that admin has to go through, but it is possible. So, the idea that you can´t fire tenured teachers is not exactly correct. It is possible, given that the P (and possibly school board? I´m not sure ) go through the correct process.
     
  18. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    Your anecdotal evidence does not stand up to the real story. When a forum as liberal as the LA Times bemoans how difficult it is to get rid of teachers that is undeniable.

    It was also determined last week that keeping teachers on the payroll not teaching is illegal. Why would districts keep bad teachers on the payroll for any reason other than it is simply not worth the headache to get it of them? Is it impossible? No. Is it needlessly complicated? Absolutely.

    Supbar teachers should not be the classroom, period. Let's start with that the premise and go from there. I'm glad this judge is more concerned with the rights of the students to have a proper teacher than for a teacher to have a proper job.
     
  19. ms.irene

    ms.irene Habitué

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    I hesitate to say this, but I don't disagree with what the decision actually says: that teacher tenure decisions are made too soon -- really after just 18 months -- and that allowing three to five years before making a decision would be fair. I actually think giving more time before offering or denying tenure would benefit teachers, since newbies struggling in their first years wouldn't be penalized too soon. (Aka, in all honestly, people like me).

    However...the decision cites from Brown vs. Board of Ed, saying that all students have a right to an equal education. I could not agree more with this idea. However, I think it's ridiculous to think that teacher tenure laws are what is keeping more bad teachers in low-income, under-performing schools. It's not tenure laws causing the achievement gap between high-paying, high-performing districts and low-paying, low-performing districts. There are so many other factors at stake, and the huge disparities district to district in teacher salaries alone is just one issue that pops right out to me. So the decision might not be bad, but it also isn't going to solve the problem it's supposed to be tackling. IMHO.
     
  20. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    Am saddened for those who tenure, but not surprised. This will spread. :( Tenure is becoming a dinosaur.
     
  21. PrincessDaisy

    PrincessDaisy Rookie

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    To be fair, there's a certain element that feel will never be out of public schools that will always make private schools better. If I had children I wouldn't send them to public schools.
     
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